Accordance Note Taking Discussion

[Dr. Nathan Parker]

@Erhard I don’t have an ETA on changes to the Notes functionality at the moment, as some of this will require deep programming changes and involve some serious planning.

 

However, I did collect all of @Kristin’s feedback on user files improvements so we can put it in our roadmap. I’m also going to collect what she posted today and file it with the rest of the feedback. We’ll definitely review all of it as we look into improving the Notes functionality.  

[Spencer]

@Kristin I had to copy and paste in chunks to get all mine out, do a bunch of reformatting and split them into .md or .txt files and now I use Obsidian to hold all my notes. It is VERY STABLE and entirely searchable.

[Kristin]

8 hours ago, john_2022 said:

Maybe you should just take your notes in Numbers to start with? That could have the additional advantage of being automatically backed up to iCloud.

 

Hi @john_2022,

For new notes, I do my best to do that. The problem is that it is a lot of copying... starting with the Bible in Accordance, going to Numbers, writing my note. Copying the Note, go back to Accordance, edit the note, paste, press the hyperlink button, save. So I do this whenever possible, but when I am literally in the middle of class and something comes up and I need to make a note, it is not realistic to tell students to hold on while I write something in Numbers. By contrast, I can just open the Accordance note, type and save and address hyperlinks later. So I try to start with Numbers, but sometimes life happens. I do start with Numbers whenever possible though.
 

8 hours ago, john_2022 said:

I do find it ridiculous that Accordance can not reliably handle user created data without corrupting or losing it. Fixing this issue should be the absolute top priority, not adding other new features ...

I agree 100%. When they had first announced v.14, I had actually done the pre-order because I had thought v.14 was going to resolve the issues v.13 created (I did not have Highlight corruption in v.12). It had not even occurred to me that it would be focused on the Word Study and other features. Nothing against the Word Study, I know a lot of people fine it useful, but it is not something I would personally use. Anyway, I agree 100% that fixing stability issues needs to be a top priority above anything else. Lacking features may be annoying for some people, but lacking stability forces people to look at other solutions. For years I did all of my important work in Accordance, now, going forward, all my important work is in Numbers.

[robrecht]

What is this "Numbers" you guys are referring to? Is it some kind of specialized note-taking program? 

[Lawrence]

@robrecht

 

It's a spreadsheet app designed by Apple.

 

https://www.apple.com/au/numbers/

[Larry Wing]

8 minutes ago, robrecht said:

What is this "Numbers" you guys are referring to? Is it some kind of specialized note-taking program? 

"Numbers" is a Mac only spreadsheet program similar to Excel or LibreOffice Calc.

 

@Kristin and @john_2022 why Numbers and not Pages? I never thought about using a spreadsheet program for note taking.

 

 

[Kristin]

1 hour ago, Larry Wing said:

why Numbers and not Pages? I never thought about using a spreadsheet program for note taking.

 

Hi @Larry Wing,

I like using Numbers since the spreadsheet keeps everything organized. For example, I put the verse number in column A and my note in column B. Thus, even if I add to the spreadsheet, and the verses are all out of order, I can easily sort the table. It is also lightning fast to find something since I can just simply search for words. In addition to this I have a fundamental topic in column C. Thus, regardless of the verse reference or content of the note, I can also sort and search by topic. So the note now becomes both a note file and a topical index.

If I were to use Pages, I am actually not sure how that would work. If I just type the verse and the note, how would I keep it distinct from the next verse and note? The only way I can think to do this is by creating a table, and if I am going to insert a table, I might as well use Numbers.

I will also mention that Accordance native Note program is functionally a table since each verse is confined. So each verse is functionally its own cell being a part of the entire note folder which is a table. I would also argue that their table is set up like mine, just vertical instead of horizontal. So in row A is the verse, and then in row B is the space where we can write notes.

I hope the reason why I use Numbers was clear, but if not, let me know.

Kristin
 

1 hour ago, robrecht said:

What is this "Numbers" you guys are referring to? Is it some kind of specialized note-taking program? 

I am sorry I did not see this before now. Lawrence is correct, it is very similar to Excel but native on Mac. Likewise, Pages is like Microsoft Word, but native to Mac. I use Numbers since I found the OpenOffice spreadsheet couldn't handle my notes, while I have never had an issue with Numbers.

Kristin

[Larry Wing]

@Kristin Thanks for how you use Numbers. It certainly is better than how I do notes (mixture of a Libre Word doc and in Accordance). I'll look further at using Numbers.

 

One question. Do you then have each book in its  own sheet in the file?

[Kristin]

37 minutes ago, Larry Wing said:

One question. Do you then have each book in its  own sheet in the file?

 

Hi @Larry Wing,

I currently don't because my notes are too massive. Exporting the notes has truly been a headache because of the size of it, and which ultimately is why I created the third "topic" column in efforts to keep things organized.

I had wanted to do what you suggested, where each new sheet is a different book, but my notes are actually too massive for that also. So unfortunately each book is its own table. I hate this, since I can only search within one table at a time, but I am not aware of a better way to do it. (I actually have this same problem in the Accordance notes too. The notes were too large and I had to split them into multiple notes files. Thus, they are only searchable one at a time, and also, if I open them all in parallel the width left for the Bible is about one inch). I should mention that the Numbers file NEVER corrupted, but it was just unmanageable since I was strolling up and down so much it became difficult to see what was going on.

In efforts of just organizing everything I finally put notes of 2023 on one sheet, 2022 on the next sheet, and 2021 and before on the next sheet. This has not worked great though, since there is some important information from 2019, and sometimes less important info in 2022. So I am still working on how to sort it out. I know I am on the right track though since everything is searchable, and Numbers does not corrupt, but I am for sure trying to make it more organized.

 

I think what I need to do is open yet another new Numbers table, dedicating each sheet to a book like you suggested, then with all my notes from the independent book tables and copy and paste ONLY the super important information that I access a lot. That way the other information would still be safe on the independent table, but I would have one Numbers table with all the critical info. I think that is what I need to do, it would just take forever which is why I haven't done it yet.

In my perfect world I would print them all out, lay them on the floor and sort them out, and then I would know how to organize it, but that is just not realistic. I attempted to do so once but when the print preview told me I was printing almost 3000 pieces of paper, I decided against it.
 

[Larry Wing]

Thank you again @Kristin

 

I probably won't use Numbers but rather a spreadsheet app from Softmaker Office. The reason is that the files can be at least read by other programs that can read Excel file format. Plus I can search all worksheets at once. I have LibreOffice installed on this Mac but I like Softmaker UI better. Since the file will be Excel format I can at least open on my Linux and my wife's Windows 10.

 

But I am definitely going to try out the spreadsheet idea!

[Jonna L Schmidt]

WELL!! I just want to say that, I still absolutely LOVE accordance. I have had NO ISSUES with ACCORDANCE 14 -- and the program has worked flawlessly for me. No crashes. I exclusively use Accordance on a MAC or IOS. 

 

I have used Bibleworks -- and it had some nice features with its MAPS. But otherwise, Bibleworks was VERY HARD to use. Accordance is very easy -- even for a non-geek like myself -- to use. One can easily prepare a Sunday school lesson, and some of the illustrations have really helped the teacher AND my charges understand passages such as Jephthah's daughter. 

 

I do not want to be offensive, but Accordance wins over LOGOS HANDS-DOWN. And I started out with the VERY OLD LOGOS which was on floppy disks for Windows 3.1 -- the "old LOGOS" was very basic, but it did a great job -- but this "new logos" is just too crazy for me. It just strikes me as "doing the Bible on social media". 

 

SO: I would unreservedly recommend Accordance to anyone who wants SERIOUS BIBLE study with first-class materials. 

 

I am not any sort of church leader or "expert" -- just a Sunday school teacher who is trying to learn some Greek & Hebrew -- and I would be DEVASTATED in Accordance were to fail. 

[Lawrence]

4 hours ago, Kristin said:

I currently don't because my notes are too massive.

 

Just wondering which limits you were bumping up against.

Numbers is said to support 256 columns x a million rows x at least 600 sheets.

But someone did a test with 1200 rows with formulas and said it slowed significantly, with Excel 300x faster at that point.

Apparently, header columns in Numbers are said to contribute to slowdown as well (though I can't see why).

If you're not keen on Excel, Libre Office is an open-source app that some have recommended in place of Numbers for larger data sets.

[Larry Wing]

35 minutes ago, Jonna L Schmidt said:

I have used Bibleworks -- and it had some nice features with its MAPS. But otherwise, Bibleworks was VERY HARD to use. Accordance is very easy -- even for a non-geek like myself -- to use. One can easily prepare a Sunday school lesson, and some of the illustrations have really helped the teacher AND my charges understand passages such as Jephthah's daughter. 

 

I do not want to be offensive, but Accordance wins over LOGOS HANDS-DOWN. And I started out with the VERY OLD LOGOS which was on floppy disks for Windows 3.1 -- the "old LOGOS" was very basic, but it did a great job -- but this "new logos" is just too crazy for me. It just strikes me as "doing the Bible on social media". 

 

SO: I would unreservedly recommend Accordance to anyone who wants SERIOUS BIBLE study with first-class materials. 

 

 

Same for me. I used Bibleworks for a number of years but since it was geared to original language study I never could get the hang of it  I was glad when Accordance added some Bibleworks features.

 

I want to at least like LOGOS but for my use it's too complicated although I have some resources in LOGOS that aren't available in Accordance so do use it on a semi-regular bases. I too started with LOGOS-Libronix on Windows and always liked it. I couple steps above Online Bible I was also using. When Accordance offered a Windows version I switched.

[Kristin]

26 minutes ago, Lawrence said:

Just wondering which limits you were bumping up against.

Numbers is said to support 256 columns x a million rows x at least 600 sheets.

But someone did a test with 1200 rows with formulas and said it slowed significantly, with Excel 300x faster at that point.

 

Hi @Lawrence,

I am sorry for my turtle speed with responses today, it has just been sort of intensive with work the past few hours. Anyway, the issues with Numbers are 100% user issues. I have NEVER had stability issues with Numbers, which is why I feel safe keeping my data there. The issues were really that my screen is too small, so I was needing to scroll up and down excessively. So splitting things into different files for sure made things less of a problem.

The reason why I had not just used a new sheet, and went with a completely new table, was frankly because I was scared of stability issues. As I mentioned above, I have never had any stability issues with Numbers, but with all the stress I went through losing notes on the Accordance program from corruption, I am exceedingly cautious. This is especially since, while I knew Numbers was stable, I actually didn't know its limits until you just wrote it. So I am relieved to hear what it can handle! It sounds like if I ever do want to just put it all on one spreadsheet, I should be able to do so without an issue. (I am planning on getting a new monitor in the next year, which will make that possible to do).

 

33 minutes ago, Lawrence said:

Apparently, header columns in Numbers are said to contribute to slowdown as well (though I can't see why).

That is interesting to hear. I have not noticed any speed issues with Numbers, but that is good info just to know.

 

34 minutes ago, Lawrence said:

If you're not keen on Excel, Libre Office is an open-source app that some have recommended in place of Numbers for larger data sets.

Thank you for the idea. Numbers has worked great for me, so I will stick with that, but that is good to know Libre works well for this. I had attempted to use OpenOffice and that honestly did not work well.
 

56 minutes ago, Jonna L Schmidt said:

I have used Bibleworks -- and it had some nice features with its MAPS. But otherwise, Bibleworks was VERY HARD to use. Accordance is very easy -- even for a non-geek like myself

-- and --

14 minutes ago, Larry Wing said:

Same for me. I used Bibleworks for a number of years but since it was geared to original language study I never could get the hang of it  I was glad when Accordance added some Bibleworks features.

 

Hi @Jonna L Schmidt and @Larry Wing,

Since you both mentioned something similar, I would like to see if you have thoughts on the matter. I have often heard people on the forums say that Accordance is geared to original languages more than Logos, but I have never understood what that means. I used BibleWorks, and I needed Greek, Hebrew, dictionaries, etc, and Accordance has that too. Surely Logos does that too, so why do people say Accordance and BibleWorks are/were is "language focused" while Logos is not as much? I have always been confused by this.

Kristin

 

[Lawrence]

5 minutes ago, Kristin said:

 

Hi @Lawrence,

I am sorry for my turtle speed with responses today, it has just been sort of intensive with work the past few hours. Anyway, the issues with Numbers are 100% user issues. I have NEVER had stability issues with Numbers, which is why I feel safe keeping my data there. The issues were really that my screen is too small, so I was needing to scroll up and down excessively. So splitting things into different files for sure made things less of a problem.

The reason why I had not just used a new sheet, and went with a completely new table, was frankly because I was scared of stability issues. As I mentioned above, I have never had any stability issues with Numbers, but with all the stress I went through losing notes on the Accordance program from corruption, I am exceedingly cautious. This is especially since, while I knew Numbers was stable, I actually didn't know its limits until you just wrote it. So I am relieved to hear what it can handle! It sounds like if I ever do want to just put it all on one spreadsheet, I should be able to do so without an issue. (I am planning on getting a new monitor in the next year, which will make that possible to do).

 

That is interesting to hear. I have not noticed any speed issues with Numbers, but that is good info just to know.

 

Thank you for the idea. Numbers has worked great for me, so I will stick with that, but that is good to know Libre works well for this. I had attempted to use OpenOffice and that honestly did not work well.
 

-- and --

 

Hi @Jonna L Schmidt and @Larry Wing,

Since you both mentioned something similar, I would like to see if you have thoughts on the matter. I have often heard people on the forums say that Accordance is geared to original languages more than Logos, but I have never understood what that means. I used BibleWorks, and I needed Greek, Hebrew, dictionaries, etc, and Accordance has that too. Surely Logos does that too, so why do people say Accordance and BibleWorks are/were is "language focused" while Logos is not as much? I have always been confused by this.

Kristin

 

 

That was a lightning-quick response. If you consider that turtle speed, I can understand how you've amassed such a large collection of notes.

 

Monitors have come down in price a lot. If you keep your current monitor when you get the new one, you can open Accordance on one and Numbers on the other. I bought a swivel arm, and once I get the right-sized screws, I'd like to try tilting one monitor to portrait orientation so I can fill the screen with a whole vertical page.

 

On alternate apps: Libre Office is based on Open Office, so if Numbers itself isn't the issue, there's no need to change.

 

Every app has the potential to corrupt data if it works with the same file over time. You're already doing regular backups. If you want to go further, check out revision-control systems. Cloud apps like google sheets have it built in, but if you prefer to keep things out of the cloud, there are also ones you can install purely on your own machine.

[Kristin]

7 hours ago, john_2022 said:

Just out of curiosity, have you ever tried Onenote? I know that is more of a Windows thing. Apple has its Notes app which is smaller and simpler ... I don't know if it could handle everything you are doing

 

Hi @john_2022,

No, I haven't. I had a Windows computer a few years ago, but I didn't use Onenote since it was cloud based, and I don't like cloud programs (which is also why I never got into EverNote). Now that I am on a Mac again, I for sure wouldn't do it since I don't personally think Windows programs work well on Mac.

I was curious though, so I just looked at a tutorial on YouTube, and I don't think this is what I need. I think it does look like a very good note taking system, but my "notes" aren't really notes, as much as the contents of chapters in a thesis. It makes me wonder if I should experiment more with Mac Pages. I had tried the pages in Accordance, but it did not personally work for me since each section was its own text box. I can see the advantage to that, but it is just not how I write. Anyway, I am glad I looked at the Onenote tutorial though, as it really helped crystalize in my mind that I need to give thought to how to organize things differently. Last year some other people were suggesting resources they found helpful for writing doctorates. I really appreciated it, but those resources are best designed for organizing lots of published books. I might use those resources mentioned in the future, but right now it is really just organizing my own work.

 

7 hours ago, john_2022 said:

But microsoft has all but destroyed it by trying to turn it into a web app that runs on different platforms. But I think it still runs natively on Windows in certain circumstances.

 

What you just said sums up my thoughts of pretty much all programs when they move to being a web program.
 

7 hours ago, john_2022 said:

I think you mentioned a lot of your notes are in text files? I used to be pretty proficient with Windows. And Windows would (or could be made to) index any type of file that the indexing service had a filter for. Pretty sure there were filters for text and excel files installed by default. This allowed you to use Windows explorer to search through your entire folder or drive using simple text search.

 

If you mean text, as opposed to graphics, that is correct. Mac also has an indexing system, which I have tried to use, but it didn't work well for my needs since it is more about organizing files, as opposed to information within files.
 

7 hours ago, john_2022 said:

Maybe some company needs to come up with a Note taking program that works specifically for Scripture notes?

 

I agree, and hopefully that company is Accordance. I think they are for the right track with their Notes. It is great how they hyperlink and can use rich text, etc. Really the only problems with them is that they corrupt, and also that they are not searchable in Research like Tools are.

Kristin

[Larry Wing]

8 hours ago, john_2022 said:

Not Mac only. Apple only (maybe). I use Numbers spreadsheets on Mac, which are also usable on iOS. I can edit spreadsheets on my iphone or iPad using the native Numbers app, which are then automatically synced to iCloud and updated on my Mac.

 

You can also create or edit a Numbers spreadsheet on iCloud (via a web browser) using Windows.

 

Numbers can also open and save Excel spreadsheets.

Good points that I hadn't thought of. I'm going to re-visit which app to use. Thank you to all for expanding on using Numbers. Plus I seen that I can create links back to Accordance which I can't do in Softmaker.

 

Side note: I wonder if the later part of this topic could be moved to another topic.  There are some good ideas and suggestions on note taking and I'm sure will be lost in "Accordance is a Major Disappointment" title.

Edited April 1, 2023 by Larry Wing

[Erhard]

3 minutes ago, Larry Wing said:

Side note: I wonder if the later part of this topic could be moved to another topic.  There are some good ideas and suggestions on note taking and I'm sure will be lost in "Accordance is a Major Disappointment" title.

@Nathan Parker would you be able to move those posts to a "Note taking topic" in Accordance discussions?

[Dr. Nathan Parker]

@Erhard I looked to see if there was a way to split some of these posts off into a separate Accordance Note Taking post. It looks like I could have attempted it, but it might have messed up the threads. I went ahead and re-named this thread “Accordance Note Taking Discussion”. You can all continue to use this thread to discuss note taking, and just create a separate thread for any other Accordance-related topic.

[Dr. Nathan Parker]

@Kristin I'm glad Numbers is working for you at the moment. You could experiment with Pages as well. I would recommend that whatever format you use for your notes, you back them up (which I’m sure you do). I don’t recall having any corruption issues with Numbers, but I think I had some issues with Pages or Keynote documents in the past. I think it was the older style format though, and Apple has changed/improved the file formats since then.

 

I think there’s a way to do non-cloud OneNote notebooks on Windows, but not sure about Mac/Mobile.

 

We’ll definitely collect all the discussions about notes in Accordance and look into how we can improve User Notes in Accordance. We’d love to be the Bible software app that offers an ideal User Note experience for our users.

 

In terms of “biblical language support” across the major apps, speaking solely as a user of various Bible apps and not as an Accordance employee, Accordance focused heavily on the biblical language/scholar market early on, and both of my biblical language professors used it, so that’s what got me into using Accordance heavily in the first place. I’ve always turned to it specifically for biblical language support and it’s the tool I use for biblical language studies. Logos, on the other hand, while I have some biblical language stuff in it, I use it primarily for non-biblical language stuff, mostly for books I don’t have in Accordance. That’s what I also did with Wordsearch until my Wordsearch library merged under Logos. I’ve heard BibleWorks had a heavy focus on biblical language studies like Accordance did, and people at both of my seminaries used it for biblical language studies. I never got to get into it since I spent that money on Accordance. 🙂 

[Erhard]

I liked Bibleworks for what I did, but the main problem was that there were really no other resources available for it as there are in Accordance and the other apps. As I have expanded what I study, I find that having the various resources available in the program really beats the paper versions, especially for quoting and searching.

[Kristin]

53 minutes ago, Nathan Parker said:

I don’t recall having any corruption issues with Numbers, but I think I had some issues with Pages or Keynote documents in the past. I think it was the older style format though, and Apple has changed/improved the file formats since then.

 

Hi @Nathan Parker,

Thank you for making me aware of this. I know the past few years Mac did a major upgrade to their apps (back when pages was a quill looking thing instead of the new app of an orange sheet), but I will for sure look into this before I start doing anything major with it.
 

56 minutes ago, Nathan Parker said:

 

We’ll definitely collect all the discussions about notes in Accordance and look into how we can improve User Notes in Accordance. We’d love to be the Bible software app that offers an ideal User Note experience for our users.

 

Thank you for doing that. I rely on Accordance Notes a lot for my classes, so regardless of whether I do future notes in Numbers or whatever for safe keeping, I will always use the Notes function in Accordance.
 

58 minutes ago, Nathan Parker said:

I’ve heard BibleWorks had a heavy focus on biblical language studies like Accordance did, and people at both of my seminaries used it for biblical language studies. I never got to get into it since I spent that money on Accordance. 🙂 

 

Thank you for clarifying the difference between Accordance and Logos. That is correct that BibleWorks was very focused on original languages. After BibleWorks died, and I needed to find something else, I knew Accordance was a competitor since I had profs who used it in grad school too. I am very grateful I am able to do in Accordance what I had been doing in BibleWorks.

Kristin

[Dr. Nathan Parker]

The old formats in iWork were packages, and I think they were more prone to occasional corruption. I haven’t had any issues with the new formats, but I still backup, as anything can happen.

 

I believe many BW users migrated to Accordance since from what I saw of BW, we were the closest alternative in terms of books/features. One major difference though is our book purchases are separate purchases from your app purchase, so unlike BW, even when we phase out support for older versions, you will always be able to take your book purchases with you to a newer version of the app.

[Teddy24]

On 3/28/2023 at 12:20 AM, Kristin said:

 

Hi @Erhard,

Thank you for the idea, but that does not work in my situation because of the size of my notes. (Accordance gives an error message if I try). I have even been on the phone with Tech Support a few times and they confirmed my notes are too massive for that to work.

I have since copied my notes 500 verses at a time (which literally took a year to do), but the problem is if I ever make an edit to a note, I need to manually change and export that verse alone. If I am working for 18 hours a day, I am obviously working on more than one verse at a time.

After I did that, I tried to stop my work every time I made an edit, copy the edited note, paste it where I am now storing them and move on, but that was an insane amount of wasted time and became impractical.

Since I had put in the year of work and have manually copied the notes, I at least have something, but the copy which I have and the copy on Accordance is simply not the same, and I just flat out don't have the time to do that again since it had taken a year to do. So now I do my best to create notes somewhere else.

On top of everything, since Notes are not included in Research (why? Tools are....) Notes are just not practical going forward.

I need something which:
1) I can export to a logical format (I like Numbers since the notes work beautifully in a table separating the verses from the note and makes it all searchable and sortable).

2) Doesn't corrupt if you look at it funny, so that exporting the notes would just be something to do if you wanted to, and not critical as it is now.

3) For it to be searchable data like everything else in Accordance for Research.

4) To be stable IN CLASS. As it is, if I scroll too fast the text writes over itself as I have spoken about before. That is not too serious as I can just close the note and re-open it and it is ok, but it is disruptive in class.

You can try logseq, it is a local open source note taking app that keeps all your notes in markdown format on your computer. I keep all my biblical and book notes in that program and then export them to pdf and upload them to Accordance which then i can search for them in the research folder. check out the screenshots, the first one is logseq with Exodus 01 notes and the second one is the pdf in accordance user tool

[Kristin]

Hi @Teddy24,

Thank you for the idea and screenshots. I will look into that. That is also a really interesting idea of importing a PDF as an Accordance tool. I create PDFs of my Numbers files on a regular basis, and it makes me wonder if I could upload that PDF to an Accordance tool. Based on your screenshot, it seems like the hyperlinks work ok.

 

Take care,

Kristin