"speech" function and the name of the LORD

[Enoch]

10 hours ago, Kristin said:

I appreciate your point about it creating distance and depersonalizing, @Robert Holmstedt. I agree completely. Along with my prior reason that I believe we are commanded to say it, another reason is that most publish Bibles call everyone under the sun some form of "lord / Lord / LORD" and I know from experience that most people think the all capped version is just to show respect, but the same word as the other two spellings (understandably). This is one of the many reasons why I teach people who don't know Hebrew what the all capped version means whenever I am able to do so.

In my own version (The Transformation Bible) which I made (which is a revision of ASV 1901), I used YHWH. In the foreward I advise that the reader may choose how to say it vocally, whether just say yod he vav he, Yahweh, Jehovah, or The Lord.  Now as to the issue of "us" being commanded, I just completed my Israel edition of my Transformation Bible in which I added to the original 2 special colors (Gold for God's Glory & magenta for God's love), 4 colors for Israel: green-blue for simple Israel, brown for Israel's ownership of the land, red-orange for Israel's restoration & return to the land, & purpose for other references to Israel's blessed future.  And when one does this, one discovers how very very many are the references to Israel, how exceeding many pronouns refer to Israel (like you & your; we and us).  Then one discovers that all these verses which we are reading as if addressed to us & the church, are actually addressed to Israel, not us.  I would include a command to use the name YHWH, though Romans 10 takes up YHWH & applies it to those who wish to obtain salvation: For whoseover shall call on the name of the LORD [YHWH, which in context refers to the Lord Jesus] shall be saved; but how shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed.  We may conclude whenever the NT uses kyrios (lord) it means YHWH when it is citing an OT passage where the actual word is YHWH (yod he vav he).

 

I am not admonishing anyone not to apply words in the OT which are addressed to Israel to ourselves today (who are not Jews).  In some way, one may apply scripture not exactly addressed to oneself to oneself.  Still I think it appropriate to consider whether or not a passage was speaking directly to Israel when uttered or written in the OT.  If it were a command applicable to those of us who are not Jews, then can we actually be certain as to how it was pronounced, especially vowels which were never written down.  We have an issue on pronouncing vav or waw. How did they pronounce it, and in fact did different regions & tribes pronounce it differently (the old shibboleth).  Actually I believe it probable that different regions & cities had differing pronunciations, as in the Gospels Peter was identified as from Galilee.  Consider how differently English is pronounced in USA & England, not to mention Scotland, India & the rest of the world.  So I think it safe to guess that YHWH was pronounced differently in different cities of Israel.  Then one may consider the rule given in the NT that there is none other name under Heaven given among men whereby we must be saved -- other than Jesus?  But surely Jesus is a gross mispronunciation of Ιησους.  But if you believe that one must call on the name of Jesus to be saved, do you also believe that one fails to obey the scripture if one pronounces it wrong?  We can't go back in time & tape record pronunciations, which no doubt differed greatly from city to city. Itacism may have been present in one city, but not in another, whereby eta is pronounced the same as iota.

 

How certain can we be of the way to say YHWH?

 

BTW, I can't imagine a Christian professor in a Christian seminary ordering his student to say Adonai, as that involves changing the text of scripture! YWHW is not Adonai.

[Gary Raynor]

You are right I do not have a time machine to go and interview Moses!

 

There are clues within the Tanach and other documents about the vowels that are used. But as to how those vowels are pronounced  that is a different story. As very well pointed out by Enoch

 

 I find it intriguing that the Rabbis who name Yeshua/Jesus/ישוע/Ιησους with an acronym (which means may his name be blotted out) would appear to do similar with YHVH.

 

As to vav or waw there are words in the writings of the prophets which interchange ב (soft bet pronounced v) with  ו ׂ(vav) and the poetry of that time rhymes if vav is used instead of waw. But I acknowledge that it might not apply to the entire stretch of history or communities of that era as evidenced by differences between Jewish communities in our era.

 

Fortunately YHVH hears how He is pronounced from our hearts and by our deeds and not by our lips! We all have traditions which to outsiders seem strange. For the record one of mine is to use Yehovah instead of LORD and if I am in a location where it produces friction or would show disrespect I use Adonai \ HaShem.

[Dr. Nathan Parker]

Which by the way, for clarification, we weren’t ordered to use “Adonai” in our Hebrew classes in seminary. Our professor simply did so in his own readings, and the rest of us (only two of us in most of the classes!) followed along. 

 

Too bad Doc Brown doesn’t frequent these forums. I’d ask him to fire up his DeLorean and go visit Moses. 🙂 

[Enoch]

On 2/18/2023 at 11:43 PM, Gary Raynor said:

You are right I do not have a time machine to go and interview Moses!

 

There are clues within the Tanach and other documents about the vowels that are used. But as to how those vowels are pronounced  that is a different story. As very well pointed out by Enoch

 

 I find it intriguing that the Rabbis who name Yeshua/Jesus/ישוע/Ιησους with an acronym (which means may his name be blotted out) would appear to do similar with YHVH.

 

As to vav or waw there are words in the writings of the prophets which interchange ב (soft bet pronounced v) with  ו ׂ(vav) and the poetry of that time rhymes if vav is used instead of waw. But I acknowledge that it might not apply to the entire stretch of history or communities of that era as evidenced by differences between Jewish communities in our era.

 

Fortunately YHVH hears how He is pronounced from our hearts and by our deeds and not by our lips! We all have traditions which to outsiders seem strange. For the record one of mine is to use Yehovah instead of LORD and if I am in a location where it produces friction or would show disrespect I use Adonai \ HaShem.

"As to vav or waw there are words in the writings of the prophets which interchange ב (soft bet pronounced v) with  ו ׂ(vav) and the poetry of that time rhymes if vav is used instead of waw."  This is an aside, but since you appear to love Hebrew Tanach poetry, do you realize that

כָּל־הַנְּחָלִים הֹלְכִים אֶל־הַיָּם וְהַיָּם אֵינֶנּוּ מָלֵא

"Lonely rivers flow to the sea, to the sea, straight into the arms of the sea" in the song "Unchained Melody" -- the tune there fits those Hebrew words in Ecclesiastes 1:7

[Gary Raynor]

Very Interesting (מעניין מאוד) 

We are grafted into Israel Rom 11:17  so the scriptures (Tanach) should have an influence on us!

[Ingo]

Also late to the party, but very interesting topic and discussion.

 

Sensitive to Jewish sensitivities and the use of השם hashem for יְהוָ֥ה, I also find it a loss to substitute an actual name with a title. At the same time Tovia Singer argues that calling your mom and dad by their first name is offensive in most cultures. (My dad doesn't like being called Opa, even though that's what/who he is!)

 

Not to promote a certain view, but I'm sure the name "Nehemia Gordon" surfaces in such studies (https://www.nehemiaswall.com/nehemia-gordon-name-god) as well.

 

שָׁלוֹם

[Kristin]

3 hours ago, Ingo said:

I also find it a loss to substitute an actual name with a title. At the same time Tovia Singer argues that calling your mom and dad by their first name is offensive in most cultures. (My dad doesn't like being called Opa, even though that's what/who he is!)

 

Hi @Ingo,
That is an interesting point you mention about Tovia Singer, but I feel that there are two things which are important to keep in mind.

First, comparing the name of God to the name of my parents is fundamentally flawed, since it ignores what these individuals requested. I call my mom "mom" since when I was a little kid I was taught that calling her "mom" was what she wanted. I knew her actual name, but continued to call her mom given her request. Tovia is thus correct that it would be disrespectful for me to call her by her actual name, as that would be completely ignoring her request. By contrast, YHWH has commanded for us to call him YHWH. So following Tovia's own logic of respect, I should call my mom "mom" and YHWH "YHWH" per their requests / commands.

The second point which I think is important to keep in mind is who the speaker is. Tovia is not just not a follow of Jesus, he is openly extremely hostile to Jesus. While I do think he makes some good points, I have also noticed, I have had the impression, that he is manipulative. It is frankly unclear to me how much of what he says he actually believes, and how much of it is just to convince his audience. An example of what I could call manipulative is point one. On the surface it makes sense, but when you bring it to the natural conclusion of respect, what he said doesn't hold up. Perhaps I am mistaken, and maybe he is totally genuine, but I think anyone watching him needs to be aware that for some people he comes across as manipulative. So it is good to analyze what he says.

Kristin

[Ingo]

Good point(s). Absolutely. Not endorsing Singer - I've caught him misquoting the Hebrew, of all things. In any case, the name of God is quite the debate, including within Judaism.

 

P.S. I am sure your mom is blessed to be called mom!

 

 

[Michel Gilbert]

The הלכה is/can be different based on the situation. For instance, in academia--in a university/college classroom or in writing--there are different laws. For instance, can you write יהוה on the blackboard? If you do, can you erase it? If you erase it, is there a proper way to do it? Can you pronounce the name in a classroom? Can you write it in a commentary?  etc., etc. And yes, there is a debate even within Judaism about using God's name in certain situations. 

[Enoch]

20 hours ago, Gary Raynor said:

Very Interesting (מעניין מאוד) 

We are grafted into Israel Rom 11:17  so the scriptures (Tanach) should have an influence on us!

I suppose that your interpretation of Rom 11:17 is not unusual. And while it is not my purpose to debate doctrine on the Accordance Forum, Rom 11:17 does not state that anybody is engrafted into Israel.  The point of interpretation is to determine what the olive tree is, & for some interpreters, they  need (IMHO) propositional teaching to establish doctrine, not figurative passages of debatable interpretation.  Someone might claim that if Israel is broken off branches, it cannot be the tree itself.

This is not to disagree with the Tanach having an influence on us.

[Enoch]

4 hours ago, Michel Gilbert said:

The הלכה is/can be different based on the situation. For instance, in academia--in a university/college classroom or in writing--there are different laws. For instance, can you write יהוה on the blackboard? If you do, can you erase it? If you erase it, is there a proper way to do it? Can you pronounce the name in a classroom? Can you write it in a commentary?  etc., etc. And yes, there is a debate even within Judaism about using God's name in certain situations. 

 

Ah ha, Ye Olde Necessary method or erasing the black board!  But what if the board is green?

[Dr. Nathan Parker]

Thanks everyone for the discussions! By the way, just a friendly reminder about ensuring this doesn’t rabbit trail into a doctrinal discussion:

 

https://forums.accordancebible.com/guidelines/

[Douglas Fyfe]

It's also worth remembering "the LORD" in printed editions is a placeholder - you may (of course!) say whatever you feel most appropriate to you and your context. There is no injunction that you must pronounce "Lord" when reading "LORD" - the whole point of it being in (small) caps is to remind you that you're reading a placeholder and that another word lies behind it, which you can pronounce as you and your conscience permits. And as Robert Holmstedt mentioned above, there are three traditions recorded in the MT when they came across the tetragrammaton: haShem, Adonai, Elohim, so there's no rigidity even in those medieval codices (despite the Septuagint tradition) on how the name must be pronounced.