The tale of the qadma

[Benjamin Denckla]

Accordance users may be interested since Accordance plays a small part in this long and winding tale of how mistakes in BHS probably made in the 1970s still cast a long shadow on us down to the present day.

 

 

[Brian K. Mitchell]

 

@Benjamin Denckla thank you for posting and for the link to the case study on this issue. It seem that you are correct a Hebrew Bibles/Tanakh based on the the BHS or digital version of it tend to retain the errors of the BHS while Tanakh based on other sources fair much better.

 

 Mordechai Breuer's Tanakh published by Mosad HaRav KOOK is pretty common in some circles so here is how it reads Deut 12:30:

 

 

And

here is Vagshal Publishing's Chumash

 

 

 

 

and the Tikkun Korim by Yosher

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Brian K. Mitchell

[Benjamin Denckla]

Thanks @Brian K. Mitchell for these additional examples supporting my point.

 

I haven't tried to get myself a Mossad HaRav Kook (Breuer) since I'm assuming the Keter Yerushalayim I have can be considered a follow-up version to it. But if I'm going to do "historical" work like this maybe I should get my hands on one.

 

I'm not familiar with the publisher Vagshal... interesting.

 

I'm so glad you have a Tiqqun Qorim by Simanim! I find it frustrating that this edition is not more widely known. That is the particular Simanim edition I used to make my claim about Simanim editions getting this accent right (i.e. having a revia).

[Benjamin Denckla]

Accordance users who liked my tale of the qadma ("Undoing and redoing ...") might like the slides from my recent SBL talk, "MAM and UXLC — two Hebrew Bible datasets." The slides don't really stand alone, but they do give a flavor of the talk.

[Dr. Nathan Parker]

I have an ArtScroll in print. Any comparison between it and the digital texts?

[Benjamin Denckla]

1 hour ago, Dr. Nathan Parker said:

I have an ArtScroll in print. Any comparison between it and the digital texts?

Good question. I don't know much about ArtScroll, either its provenance (e.g. is it WLC-derived) or its reputation.

[Dr. Nathan Parker]

I have samples I can scan and send you if you ever want to have a look.

[Brian K. Mitchell]

16 hours ago, Dr. Nathan Parker said:

I have an ArtScroll in print. Any comparison between it and the digital texts?

 

Yes, I here is ArtScroll's Jaffa Chumash

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Brian K. Mitchell

[Brian K. Mitchell]

Here is Norman Henry Snaith's controversial Tanakh 

 

And, even with all the errors, issues, and problems this Tanakh has it at least gets Deuteronomy 12:30 right but then again my friend, that might be because Snaith was copying Meïr Halevi Letteris' Tanakh: 

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Brian K. Mitchell

[Brian K. Mitchell]

On 12/6/2023 at 8:50 PM, Benjamin Denckla said:

I'm not familiar with the publisher Vagshal... interesting.

 

"Moznaim Publishing Corp/ Hotza’at Vagshal is of one of the worlds largest Sifrei Kodesh (Jewish Books) enterprises. Founded generations ago by Rabbi Chanoch Hanoch Eliezer Wagschal zt”l, the Israeli branch near Jerusalem publishes and prints all Vagshal (Hebrew) and Moznaim (other languages) Books and is the Israeli distributor. The American division Moznaim Publishing Corp. handles North American distribution and is a major bookstore in New York." https://moznaim.com/pages/about-us

[Brian K. Mitchell]

On 12/6/2023 at 8:50 PM, Benjamin Denckla said:

I'm so glad you have a Tiqqun Qorim by Simanim! I find it frustrating that this edition is not more widely known. That is the particular Simanim edition I used to make my claim about Simanim editions getting this accent right (i.e. having a revia).

@Benjamin Denckla I wonder why Simanim isn't more recognized? I do have Simanim Tiqqun

However, the Tikkun in the photo is Abraham B. Walzer's Tiqqun Korim Hamefoar published by Yosher.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Brian K. Mitchell

[Brian K. Mitchell]

 

Here's the Ktav publishing house Tikkun

 

 

 

[Benjamin Denckla]

33 minutes ago, Brian K. Mitchell said:

@Benjamin Denckla I wonder why Simanim isn't more recognized? I do have Simanim Tiqqun

However, the Tikkun in the photo is Abraham B. Walzer's Tiqqun Korim Hamefoar published by Yosher.

Thanks for clarifying, I shouldn't have jumped to conclusions about which Tiqqon Korim you were referring to! After all it just means, roughly "Reader's Edition," a pretty generic title. Your Yosher Tiqqun looks very similar to the Simanim Tiqqun, but I now see has many subtle stylistic differences.

 

By the way, it occurs to me that a more literal translation of Tiqqun Korim might be "Reconciling Reader," where the reconciliation referred to is the reconciliation (or at least juxtaposition) of the written (ketiv) (unpointed scroll) tradition with the chanted (qere) (pointed) tradition. I.e. the main point of these editions is to prepare you to chant from an unpointed scroll.

[Brian K. Mitchell]

3 minutes ago, Benjamin Denckla said:

Thanks for clarifying, I shouldn't have jumped to conclusions about which Tiqqon Korim you were referring to! After all it just means, roughly "Reader's Edition," a pretty generic title.

Sorry, about that I was pretty vague.

But, believe it or not Amazon.com actually sells an Ashkenaz Simanim Tikun Korim (Link)

 

[Brian K. Mitchell]

@Benjamin Denckla have you had a chance to look at the Keter Torah Taj : Tiqqun Sofrim Teimani ?

[Benjamin Denckla]

1 minute ago, Brian K. Mitchell said:

@Benjamin Denckla have you had a chance to look at the Keter Torah Taj : Tiqqun Sofrim Teimani ?

I'm not familiar with that edition. Sounds interesting.

[Brian K. Mitchell]

2 minutes ago, Benjamin Denckla said:

I'm not familiar with that edition. Sounds interesting.

@Benjamin Denckla you can check it out here (link) . If, you click on the the hypertext 'look inside' underneath the photo you will of course get a good idea of its features.

[Brian K. Mitchell]

@Benjamin Denckla the issues with the BHS and with it's digital editions make me wish there were editions of the Tanakh in Accordance that were not based on the BHS. 

[Brian K. Mitchell]

 

Seligman Baer 's Tiqqun 

 

This one isn't going to be very helpful because it does not have any cantillation/accent marks nor does it have vowels. 

But, it's an odd pocket sized Tiqqun that might be nice to have in accordance. It has an interesting 20 page introduction and some extras at the end.

 

 

 

[Brian K. Mitchell]

@Benjamin Denckla I know you already mentioned the Keter Yerushalayim but I'd like to add some pictures of it for those on the forums that might no know what the Keter Yerushalayim looks like. So here it is and the verse under consideration:

 

 

 

 

[Benjamin Denckla]

1 hour ago, Brian K. Mitchell said:

@Benjamin Denckla the issues with the BHS and with it's digital editions make me wish there were editions of the Tanakh in Accordance that were not based on the BHS. 

To me, the obvious choice would be an edition of MAM for Accordance. I have offered to do whatever work I can, on the outside, to prepare such an edition for them, but if there's not sufficient customer interest... Oak Tree is a business after all! There was even an internal, previous effort to make a MAM Accordance module. See 

 

[Dr. Nathan Parker]

I have Trinitarian Bible Society's edition in print as well if anyone wants to see it.

 

@Benjamin Denckla Keep me posted on customer interest for the MAM, then if there's enough interest in it, we can talk. :-)

[Brian K. Mitchell]

15 hours ago, Dr. Nathan Parker said:

I have Trinitarian Bible Society's edition in print as well if anyone wants to see it.

Sure, I would love to see which edition of Christian David Ginsburg's Tanakh first printed by the Trinitarian Bible Society in 1894 that you have in your library. 

[Dr. Nathan Parker]

Great. I'll take some pictures. Any sample pages you want to see?