How do I use Accordance to explore verbal valency in English translations.

[Brian K. Mitchell]

A writer or a translator can use prepositions and complements to significantly alter the meaning of a verb or bring out/give a verb a different nuance. I would like to know what accordance feature could be use to explore the use of verbal valency in an English translation of the Bible? 

[mgvh]

If I understand you correctly, you are asking about ways of determining the range of meaning (valency?) of a word as it pertains to the overall effect on the translation.

Here are some things I use.

1. Lexicons: I like using the Live Click which opens up the Lexicon Lookup tab.
   1. For NT use, I find value in checking BDAG, Exegetical Dict of NT, NIDNTTE, and Brill Dict of Ancient Greek. (Those first three are standards, but the Brill has been very helpful to expand the range.)
   2. I want to make a special note about Louw-Nida Lexicon since it attends to how words and concepts are perceived outside standard Western, English-speaking regions.
2. Text Browser = Verse Lookup: This also is available through Live Click. Seeing the range of translation choices helps get a sense of how others have tried to work through a word's range of reference.
3. Original language oriented commentaries. In particular:
   1. The UBS Translator Handbook series is very good at alerting one to issues in translation and things to consider.
   2. SIL Exegetical Summary Series (whole NT covered but only Joel and Malachi for OT): Looks closely at translation issues
   3. For NT, Exegetical Guide to the Greek NT is also helpful.

[Brian K. Mitchell]

12 hours ago, mgvh said:

If I understand you correctly, you are asking about ways of determining the range of meaning (valency?) of a word as it pertains to the overall effect on the translation.

Thank you mgvh!, but that isn't exactly what I looking for. (however what you provided it still very useful!!)

 

My question, this time around, isn't about the act/process of translation or issues in the original text. Rather, I am interested in how those in involved in post-process (or post-editing) may have done a systematically revision of the final drafts of the translation. Some this may be simple copyediting, but other times this process maybe concerned with the overall Style and tone consistency of the final product not to mention localization or cultural appropriateness. So, I am interested in exploring how a finished and edited English translation maybe using and adapting verbs to bring across meaning. 

[mgvh]

I may still not be addressing directly what you are asking, but a few thoughts...

• I do see in major versions like the NRSVue, CSB, NIV, CEB that are the result of teams of translators and reviewers a certain degree of consistency that tends to level out the tone and style of various books.
• Some versions have clear theological biases embedded in the translation. Some versions do not include Jewish scholars in translating the OT. Some versions only have translators who identify as Christian ('evangelical'). The NLT especially displays theological views in translation choices.
• The NET Bible started out as a project with books assigned to individuals. In the first edition, it was clear to see various approaches to translation in each book. Subsequent revisions have tended to even things out.
• Some individual translations (e.g., Peterson's The Message or David Bentley Hart's The New Testament) have rather specific translation philosophies that they apply consistently.

From my own experience...   I am working on a translation of the gospel of Mark that is based on many years of teaching Greek and Mark's gospel. (Let the Hearer Understand) I have come to 'hear' an oral / aural character in Mark that is different than the other gospels and is often lost or flattened in modern English versions which tend to strive for more literary readings. What I have done, then, is gone through the translation multiple times, learning nuances of Mark each time. In particular, I've created my own glossing key for words in Mark. It is impossible to translate a Greek word with the same English word each time, but I do have a range of how the word is translated. I try to translate as consistently as possible so that we 'hear' in English the same wording that was heard in the Greek. Here's where I am looking forward to Accordance's User Tools which allows for creation of a personal lexicon to become more robust and easier to use.

[Brian K. Mitchell]

On 10/22/2023 at 4:27 AM, mgvh said:

I may still not be addressing directly what you are asking, but a few thoughts...

Thank you for sharing your thoughts! I am really enjoy hearing about and exploring issues like these!

 

On 10/22/2023 at 4:27 AM, mgvh said:

From my own experience...   I am working on a translation of the gospel of Mark that is based on many years of teaching Greek and Mark's gospel...What I have done, then, is gone through the translation multiple times, learning nuances of Mark each time. In particular, I've created my own glossing key for words in Mark. 

Whenever, it is done please let me know! I will be more than happy purchase it!  

 

On 10/22/2023 at 4:27 AM, mgvh said:

It is impossible to translate a Greek word with the same English word each time

Yes, exactly textual(situational) context often plays an  important role in translation, plus different languages rarely have vocabulary that are equivalent in every way. 

[Gary Raynor]

I have found that with my Hebrew listening to and verbalizing the text brings a feel and intuitive knowledge that goes beyond the initial lexicon dive, grammar and syntax analysis stage greatly helps with the "valency" aspect.

When I first started learning Hebrew (back in the early 80's) we were taught without the use of mother tongue grammar or translation. 

Purely out interest - do you gentleman at any stage listen and verbalize the Greek in an attempt to remove mother tongue filters?

 

[Brian K. Mitchell]

12 hours ago, Gary Raynor said:

Purely out interest - do you gentleman at any stage listen and verbalize the Greek in an attempt to remove mother tongue filters?

Yes, when it comes to SLA (second Language Acquisition) I am a big proponent of language immersion programs over the so called 'grammar-translation' pedagogy often used to teach so called dead languages. I hold the idea that people acquire both their L1 (first language)and their L2 (TL /Target language) though 'comprehensible input' or 'I+1' (think of Stephen krashen hypothesis).   So, when it comes to acquiring proficiency in a foreign language in a classroom setting think something like the ulpanim, The Polis Institute Jerusalem, Randall Buth's Biblical language center, the Middlebury Language Schools in the U.S.A are the way to go. However, a very dedicated individual can acquire an L2 on their own through lots of input and exposure. There are some Youtube challenge that attempt to teach ancient language in the ancient language. Okay, I think some form of  language immersion can help to nullify the influence of L1 on the acquisition of  L2 or TL and the fossilization of interlanguage. 

 

Years ago when I was in university I took five semesters of Attic/Koine Greek and all of my instructors used the 'grammar-translation' method. Durning that time I realized that I was making much fast progress with a modern language I was taking than I was with ancient Greek, that I had taken for more hours! That's when I first started thinking about SLA more seriously. 

 

 

 

[mgvh]

I know, it's sad, but I only have one semester to teach the required Greek course. I don't use a grammar-translation approach. I use a grammar-tools-understanding approach. Hence why Accordance is so important and why my grammar is oriented to this process. (And I actually am getting good results. Back in the day when it was 2+ years of Greek with the goal of reading and translating the NT, many students never gained sufficient competency. Of the ones who did, most of them lost it within a couple years out of seminary when they were not regularly working in the Greek. With my tools / understanding approach, students are actually consulting the Greek and able to make discernments about various translations and work with secondary literature that discusses Greek.)

That said... in my Mark translation project, I am trying to emulate the 'sound' of the Greek. As you can imagine it's a challenge, especially because the Greek has the inflected endings that allows for a lot of easy euphony. E.g.,

Mark 1.2:Ἰδοὺ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου,
ὃς κατασκευάσει τὴν ὁδόν σου·

That quote from LXX Exod 23.20 is translate by almost every major English version as:

"See, I am sending my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way"

 

First, πρὸ προσώπου σου is really more like "before your face." Using "ahead of you" is fine and accurate enough, AND, here's an instance where I like the "face > aHEAD" can actually hint at the Greek.

Second, the σου at the end of each phrase has a nice rhyming ring to it.

"Look here! I am sending my messenger ahead of you,
    the one who will make the way ready for you."

 

I can't do it often, but here is an instance where I could get some euphony worked out.

 

[Brian K. Mitchell]

3 hours ago, mgvh said:

I don't use a grammar-translation approach. 

I am glad you used the indefinite article! This was a good little reminder to me that grammar-translation is more of an umbrella term than one specific method. I remember some Greek introductory grammars use to be somewhat polarized between either being deductive or inductive. Historically public Junior high Schools in Japan use a grammar-translation approach to teach English. They do it over a three year period with three to four hours a week, and then ask student to take the Eiken test. High School's continue this approach for 3 more years. This approach is far more heavy on reading comprehension than on developing good speaking skills and listening skills BUT students who apply themselves and put effort in outside of class will acquire a very good foundation. 

 

5 hours ago, mgvh said:

I don't use a grammar-translation approach. I use a grammar-tools-understanding approach. Hence why Accordance is so important and why my grammar is oriented to this process. (And I actually am getting good results....With my tools / understanding approach, students are actually consulting the Greek and able to make discernments about various translations and work with secondary literature that discusses Greek

I would love to hear more about this! This sounds really progressive. I think the fact that this helps get your students into the source text and the literature as soon as possible is a very good thing! 

 

I am a bit old fashioned and I still wish people had at least a two semesters introductory course, followed by exegesis and reading courses. However, what your are doing seem to be having a positive result.

 

6 hours ago, mgvh said:

many students never gained sufficient competency. Of the ones who did, most of them lost it within a couple years out of seminary when they were not regularly working in the Greek.

This only my conjecture but in my opinion one the issues with seminaries other than the lack of time allotted for Biblical languages is the fact that language class are usually completly divorced from theology and Bible classes. But, the sadder issue here is that student themselves for whatever reason do no value their language skills and the source text enough to continue using them!

 

 

[mgvh]

@Brian K. Mitchell wrote: " I think the fact that this helps get your students into the source text and the literature as soon as possible is a very good thing!  "

Indeed! We are 'translating' from the very first hour. Every single example is from the GNT (or LXX). Day 1 is intro, alphabet, English/Greek grammar comparison. On day 2 I completely cover indicative verbs. Nouns, article, adjectives, cases on day 3.

 

@Brian K. Mitchell wrote: "This only my conjecture but in my opinion one the issues with seminaries other than the lack of time allotted for Biblical languages is the fact that language class are usually completely divorced from theology and Bible classes."

Our MDiv students have to take Greek before they can take any Bible classes. With Accordance, it's easy to be constantly referring to the Greek text. (As for theology and praxis, that kind of depends on the professor. Some do, some not so much.) We have tried to tie biblical study to preaching.

[Brian K. Mitchell]

On 10/26/2023 at 12:21 PM, Gary Raynor said:

I have found that with my Hebrew listening to and verbalizing the text brings a feel and intuitive knowledge that goes beyond…

I did a little bit of modern Hebrew way back when. But these days I often use audio resources like these. 

mp3 files of Shlomo Bertonov’s reading of the Tanakh on the right hand side of the photo in the white sleeve and leining master by Rabbi Jeremy Wieder. I also have accordance audio tanakh.

 

For beginners of Hebrew I might recommend the ‘Aleph with Beth’ YouTube channel which is connected to freeHebrew.online website. For Greek I would recommend ScorpioMartianus YouTube channel’s Ancient Greek in action. Now, while I am a big believer of immersion methods I still think some grammar and syntax instruction is important.

 

Grace and Peace 

 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Brian K. Mitchell

[Gary Raynor]

4 hours ago, Brian K. Mitchell said:

I Now, while I am a big believer of n immersion methods I still thing some grammar and syntax instruction is important.

 

I could not agree more. Especially with biblical Hebrew versus modern Hebrew.

I also have more than one Hebrew reading style to listen to.

 

 

[Brian K. Mitchell]

12 hours ago, mgvh said:

We are 'translating' from the very first hour. Every single example is from the GNT (or LXX). Day 1 is intro, alphabet, English/Greek grammar comparison. On day 2 I completely cover indicative verbs. Nouns, article, adjectives, cases on day 3.

Wow, that is inspiring! Thanks for sharing!!!

 

12 hours ago, mgvh said:

Our MDiv students have to take Greek before they can take any Bible classes.

The fact that your Mdiv program has taken that stance tell me that your school has a lot of integrity and maybe courage, too.

 

12 hours ago, mgvh said:

With Accordance, it's easy to be constantly referring to the Greek text.

I agree! So, does this mean that your school's curriculum requires accordance Bible software?

[Brian K. Mitchell]

6 hours ago, Gary Raynor said:

I could not agree more. Especially with biblical Hebrew versus modern Hebrew.

I also have more than one Hebrew reading style to listen to.

 

 

You might like this video there are a number of different reading transitions of Hebrew in this video also pay close attention Accordance Bible software makes an appearance (first at 4:18 but also in the other places) in the video:

 

 

[mgvh]

2 hours ago, Brian K. Mitchell said:

I agree! So, does this mean that your school's curriculum requires accordance Bible software?

Yes, we do. And in doing so, we are able to get a good discount for our students. We require the Greek and Hebrew Discoverer package.

[Gary Raynor]

17 hours ago, Brian K. Mitchell said:

You might like this video there are a number of different reading transitions of Hebrew in this video also pay close attention Accordance Bible software makes an appearance (first at 4:18 but also in the other places) in the video:

 

 

Much appreciated I found it fascinating.

With Waw or Vav I recollect that some communities say Waw when it is used as a conjunction and Vav elsewhere.

 

On the subject of Grammar, you may find Alan Smith's pdf's from DikDuk software interesting.

Learn Torah through Better Dikduk - Biblical Hebrew Grammar Software - דקדוק של התורה - תוכנה לעברית מקראית, תורה, תנ"ך, חומש (torahdikduk.com)

I went out of my way to summarize some of it for myself from both the English and Modern Hebrew versions as below:

He also discusses terms such as Infinite Construct, Infinite Absolute and Gerund in a manner slightly different from most grammars.

Time, Aspect and Tense

Time (זְמָן דִּקְדּוּקִי😞

Past, present and future

Aspect (הֶבֵּט😞

Perfective (completed) and Imperfective (not yet completed) 

Tense (טֶנס-כּוֹלֵל זְמָן😞 14 in all page 18

	Past	Present	Future
Simple	I ate	No simple present	I will eat (once)
Repetitive	I used to eat	I eat	I will eat (repeatedly)

 

 

 

 

 

Relative Action→ ↓Background time	Completed	Concurrent or Continuous	Intended
In the past	I had eaten	I was eating	I was about to eat
In the present	I have eaten	I am eating	I am about to eat
In the future	I will have eaten	I will be eating	I will be about to eat

 

 

Translated table from the Modern Hebrew version of DikDuk notes

Language	Aspect	Time	Tense
Biblical Hebrew	Yes	No	Sentence structure using aspects
Latin	No	See tense	Inflexion
English	No	See tense	Auxiliary verbs
French	No	See tense	Inflexion and auxiliary verbs
Russian	Yes	Yes	Inflexion
Modern Hebrew	No	Yes	No

 

 

Forming the Tenses in Biblical Hebrew page 24

 

	עָבָר	הוֹוֶה	עָתִיד
פְּשׁוּטִים	וְלֹא שָמַע פַּרְעֹה וַיִּכְבַּד לֵב פַּרעֹה		זֶרַע רַב תּוֹצִיא הַשָּׂדֶה וְשָׁרַץ הַיְאֹר צְפַרְדְּעִים
תְּדִירִים	וְהָיָה כַּאֲשֶר יָרִים מֹשֶה יָדוֹ וְגָבַר יִשׂרָאֵל	מֵקִים מֵעָפָר דָּל, מֵאַשְׁפֹּת יָרִים אֶבְיוֹן

 

 

→פעולה  יַחֲסִיִים רקע זמן↓	מֻשְׁלָם	בּוֹזְמָנִית או פְּעֻלָּה נִמְשֶׁכֶת	פְּעֻלָּה עוֹמֶדֶת לְהִתְבַּצֵּעַ
עָבָר	וַאֲבִימֶלֶך לֹא קַרַב אֵלֶיהָ   כִּי הַיום יְהֺוָה נִרְאָה אֲלֵיכֶם	וְהוּא יֹשֶב פֶּתַח אֹהֶל	וְהֵמָה טֶרֶם יִשְּׁכָּבוּן
הוֹוֶה			הִנֵה יָד יהוה הוֹיָה בְּמִקְנְךָ
עָתִיד

 

 

Simple:

Past

Perfective verb then the Subject (if any)

OR

Vav imperfective verb then the Subject (if any)

Future

Imperfective verb then the Subject (if any)

OR

                        Vav perfective verb then the Subject (if any)

Repetitive:

Past, Present and Future

Imperfective verb followed by an optional subject

OR

Vav imperfective verb followed by an optional subject

Present

Optional participle followed by an optional subject

 

Relative: (describing an action relative to the time of a state of affairs)

Completed Action:  

Subject then Perfective   pluperfect or present-perfect or future-perfect

Current or Continuous Action:

Subject then Participle

Intended Action:

Subject then Imperfective (use טרם for past הינה in the present)

 

Note: These rules are not universal – there are exceptions

[Brian K. Mitchell]

3 hours ago, Gary Raynor said:

On the subject of Grammar, you may find Alan Smith's pdf's from DikDuk software interesting.

I do find this interesting! Thank you!

 

In the past I used both, Modern Hebrew: An Essential Grammar and The Grammar of Modern Hebrew by Lewis Glinert for reference so my views on Modern Hebrew grammar are probably very one sided and in need of update. 

4 hours ago, Gary Raynor said:

I went out of my way to summarize some of it for myself from both the English and Modern Hebrew versions as below

Thank you I appreciate that! 

 

4 hours ago, Gary Raynor said:

With Waw or Vav I recollect that some communities say Waw when it is used as a conjunction and Vav elsewhere.

That is really fascinating! I would love to learn about those communities.