Is there a danger in too many translations?

[ukfraser]

Thought this was the best section to post this but Is anyone aware of any research in this area? Particularly as many are called to minister to an ageing population and we have a new generations coming through who do not have the same ingrained material that the previous generations did.

 

Because i can easily check translations and follow links in accordance, i can research a passage much more deeply and much more quickly than i ever could with dead tree commentaries and concordance. (And i am sooooo grateful for having this.)

 

However, I am aware that my mind is a lot more RAM like these days. 

 

Back in the 70s i attended a lecture where the speaker shared his experiences of the second world war and how prisoners could hold services without books because of their common memory of bcp and the kjv. (Yes it made an impression and i can still remember some of the talk!)

 

For many years i took services at a couple of sheltered accommodations where the elderly residents were familiar with the bcp and were not bothered by failing eyesight or hearing loss as the text had become ingrained through many years of repetition. Talking to people who work with the very frail, they frequently share how they are reading something out loud and they see the person they are with mouthing the words as well.

 

In my teens there was a movement that encouraged us to memorise scripture and we recently had the film 'the book of Eli'.

 

With the plethora of new translations, modern songs and the ease in accordance for searching i am reminded by the lectures final words:

 

How would we cope in a concentration camp? 

How would members of our congregations cope?

 

Where we are totally reliant on memory be it through physical or mental limitations.

Edited August 30, 2021 by ukfraser

[ScottDF]

From your post it's possible it's not the plethora of translations but the paucity of depth of a person's study that may be the problem. I may succumb to the temptation to allow Accordance to do my memory work for me. Your post is a good reminder, to keep working even through we have great riches in resources, or maybe because we do. 

[Chris Todd]

This also highlights the need to understand the spirit of the verse in the text as given by the author - God. If we understand and live it, we can easily paraphrase the verse into languages or contexts without losing or compromising God's intended meaning.

 

I find some translations lose sight of this in NT verses that remove OT references - i.e. 2Tim 3:16 being "throughly furnished" immediately references the tabernacle of Moses and the application in our lives to furnish each of the truths of the pieces of furniture in our lives.  

[Pastor Jonathan]

@ukfraser,

 

I know we may differ on this, and not trying or wanting a debate, but this is one area that I am seeing the pitfalls of multi texts.

 

When there was one that was commonly held, there was a stronger sense of unity in the church groups and culture.

 

Not perfect but better than where we are now. I used to be big on NIV, NASB, etc, but through a lot of study, and prayer, I have had my views and thoughts changed.

 

Again, not wanting to debate but the Accordance we use is a great help. But I rely on it to get verses, rather than memory. Somthing that the older generation had.

 

Thanks for an interesting topic. 

 

ETA: The sad face is over how far we have fallen as a people. 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Pastor Jonathan

[Accordance Enthusiast]

The solution is to read the original languages.

 

Then you can quickly see which translation is accurate, and if you really know the languages you can also tell why the translation differ.

 

No translation is perfect, and due to the multitude of translations available some end up cherry picking the versions they like for whatever verse.

 

Everyone should learn Hebrew and Aramaic well, and also Greek.

 

That's the only solution to the problem as there will never be a perfect translation.

 

Memorize your verses in the original language and you never have to re-learn it in a new translation.

[Pastor Jonathan]

1 hour ago, Anonymous said:

The solution is to read the original languages.

 

Then you can quickly see which translation is accurate, and if you really know the languages you can also tell why the translation differ.

 

No translation is perfect, and due to the multitude of translations available some end up cherry picking the versions they like for whatever verse.

 

Everyone should learn Hebrew and Aramaic well, and also Greek.

 

That's the only solution to the problem as there will never be a perfect translation.

 

Memorize your verses in the original language and you never have to re-learn it in a new translation.

Agree, but for many, they can't, so I took this a next best thing scenario 

[ukfraser]

3 hours ago, Anonymous said:

The solution is to read the original languages.

 

Everyone should learn Hebrew and Aramaic well, and also Greek.

It probably wont work written down but im reminded of the joke

what do you call someone who can speak many languages

multilingual

 

what do you call someone who can speak two languages

bilingual

 

what do you call someone who can speak one language

English

 

I agree if we are serious that is the ideal and once in heaven...

but i cant see this ever being a reality for everyone in our congregations. 

[Accordance Enthusiast]

28 minutes ago, ukfraser said:

It probably wont work written down but im reminded of the joke

what do you call someone who can speak many languages

multilingual

 

what do you call someone who can speak two languages

bilingual

 

what do you call someone who can speak one language

English

 

I agree if we are serious that is the ideal and once in heaven...

but i cant see this ever being a reality for everyone in our congregations. 

 

It is impossible as an instant solution. But if everyone starts learning the original languages part time, or even slower, they can all know Hebrew Greek and Aramaic within 20 years. If parents then teach their children from 1 - 18 the next generation will all know the languages. It's not impossible, but certainly not an instant solution.

 

I like the CSV translation for it's accuracy and for being faithful to original languages (generally).

[Dr. Nathan Parker]

Accordance has definitely made it easier for me to search for Bible passages, even if I’m thoroughly familiar with a particular Bible translation and the wording. Comparing Bible translations are a breeze in Accordance. I’ve parted with most of my print Bibles and just keep a couple of top-notch leather ones around for reading. I use Accordance for all translation comparisons.

 

Learning the biblical languages is an ideal situation (one I’m glad I’ve done). In the meantime, word studies on key numbers in Accordance 14 is one useful way to get one’s feet wet with biblical language resources even if one hasn’t formally learned them yet.

[Rick55]

If I may chime in brethren, 

 

Using one primary translation that you know most, then using 3 or 4 other translations to compare may be a good idea. 

 

Of course comparing all the translations at once uses more ram and screen space, 

 

So depending on your needs, maybe sticking to your 'primary translation' and sticking to a few others to compare, so once you get a decent understanding of those three(after some time) then rotate replace them with 3 new ones. 

 

 

Also depending on who are your current setting, see what translation the others are using most, and use those one to study with your primary. 

 

For example the 'maybe' NIV and the KJV are very popular in the pew, so add those into the mix. 

 

 

Also, 'maybe' not as many people are using the Tree of Life version or New Jerusalem Bible

Edited October 7, 2023 by Rick55

[Dr. Nathan Parker]

You could also create a workspace of a few translations in parallel using the "compare" feature, and call it up when you want to do the comparisons.

[Brian K. Mitchell]

On 1/24/2023 at 1:19 PM, Accordance Enthusiast said:

The solution is to read the original languages.

 

This!

 

הרי הוא כאלו מנשק את אמו דרך המטפחת. כל מי שמציץ דרך התרגום

After all, He is only kissing his mother/wife through a handkerchief when he peeks through a translation

– אינו אלא רואה מתוך אספקלריה מטושטשת ואינו מרגיש את כל הטעם בה ואת כל מאווי נשמתה, כי היא, הלשון, רק היא שפת הלב והנפש

He is only able to see through blurry lenses but will never touch or experience the essence of its soul, because the heart and soul is only in the tongue, the language 

 

 

על "אומה ולשון"

(from) on nation and language

מאת: חיים נחמן ביאליק

(by) Hayim Nahman Bialik

 

https://benyehuda.org/read/1284

and

https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/על_"אומה_ולשון"

 

 

[Pastor Jonathan]

On 10/9/2023 at 5:52 AM, Brian K. Mitchell said:

 

This!

 

הרי הוא כאלו מנשק את אמו דרך המטפחת. כל מי שמציץ דרך התרגום

After all, He is only kissing his mother/wife through a handkerchief when he peeks through a translation

– אינו אלא רואה מתוך אספקלריה מטושטשת ואינו מרגיש את כל הטעם בה ואת כל מאווי נשמתה, כי היא, הלשון, רק היא שפת הלב והנפש

He is only able to see through blurry lenses but will never touch or experience the essence of its soul, because the heart and soul is only in the tongue, the language 

 

 

על "אומה ולשון"

(from) on nation and language

מאת: חיים נחמן ביאליק

(by) Hayim Nahman Bialik

 

https://benyehuda.org/read/1284

and

https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/על_"אומה_ולשון"

 

 

Poor William Tyndale and Martin Luther. 

[Brian K. Mitchell]

18 hours ago, Pastor Jonathan said:

Poor William Tyndale and Martin Luther. 

 

Martin Luther on the issue:

Quote

 

“Let us then, foster the learning of languages as zealously as we love the Gospel. For not for nothing did God have His Scripture written down in these two languages alone: the Old Testament in Hebrew, the New in Greek. The languages, therefore, which God did not despise but chose above all others for His Word we, too, ought to honor above all others.

And let us be sure of this: we shall not long preserve the Gospel without languages. Languages are the sheath in which this sword of the Spirit is contained. They are the case in which we carry this jewel. They are the vessel in which we hold this wine. They are the larder in which this food is stored. And, as the Gospel itself says, they are the baskets in which we bear these loaves and fishes and fragments.”

 

“To the Councilmen of All Cities in Germany, 1524

 

 

[Lawrence]

To @ukfraser's issue about familiarity/memory, what we need is repetition. That's easy to arrange for kids since they enjoy repetition. With adults, it can get more tricky. Churches that follow set recitals have it a little easier, but it's still a challenge to get enough repetition to cover any significant portion of the Bible. Suggestions would be welcome.

 

For study and devotional reading, it's useful to have translations that cover the spectrum of formal equivalence ('literal') and dynamic equivalence ('paraphrase'). FE translations help preserve some of the ambiguity that might have been intended in the text without going overboard on pet theological slants, while DE translations help us decipher idiomatic language. Both ends help us to come to grips with the message of the passage.

[ukfraser]

4 hours ago, Lawrence said:

With adults, it can get more tricky. Churches that follow set recitals have it a little easier, but it's still a challenge to get enough repetition to cover any significant portion of the Bible. Suggestions would be welcome.

Since i posted this, there have been about 8 requests for different english translations and i have lost count of all the new published updates to other translations.
i doubt many in the congregations i am in will update to the more recent translations, there seems to be trends. On this side of the pond there was the good news, new english and living back in the 70s and 80s, the niv in the 90s, the nrsv and the message in the naughties, but since then most people seem to stick with what they have and churches dont change their pew editions very frequently and the projected tends to be the same so there is repetition that way. I must say, when preparing a service i tend to look at the pew translation first which is either tev or nrsv depending on which church and then a couple of others, jps and niv. I can see the 'for everyone' being useful as lots here use the 'for everyman' series for home group preparation but at home, we have a few dead tree versions that we thought looked interesting but dont use them and i cant see myself getting any of the latest ones now. 
 

but i think that building repetition is important especially as we get older and bits stop working and sticking to one or two versions at the most has to be the way. However, im really pleased to have the translations on my mobile devices and move away from dead trees so i can play with the fonts, find things quickly and run searches and use links. For about 40 years i used the Jerusalem translation but since going digital my main translation is the nrsv as the Jerusalem version in accordance isnt tagged, is a more recent translation, is not used in any of the churches i attend and doesnt include the study notes to the one im used to so couldn't see any reason for getting it. I still find im thinking in jb translation which throws a few surprises when i try and run a search but the nrsv is slowly starting to sink in. 
 

;o) 
 

but im not sure how much i could quote if i was held hostage or in a concentration camp and was denied access to my mobile devices. (or found myself in a world as depicted in the book of eli which is where this thread started.)
 

;o( 

Edited October 14, 2023 by ukfraser

[Pastor Jonathan]

12 hours ago, Brian K. Mitchell said:

 

Martin Luther on the issue:

 

And he is not wrong, but yet he still translated into German and almost single handidly established the Germanic language. 

 

I am not saying we ignore the original languages at all. I was just saying there is something beautiful in the simplistic nature of Scripture in the heart language. 

 

That was all. 

[Brian K. Mitchell]

12 hours ago, Pastor Jonathan said:

And he is not wrong, but yet he still translated into German and almost single handidly established the Germanic language. 

 

I am not saying we ignore the original languages at all.

Exactly, after all without knowledge of the original languages Luther would not have been able to translate the Bible into Frühneuhochdeutsch  ( which gradual became the widely used Standardhochdeutsch of today). Obviously, translations are useful for bring across the overall interpretation of communication originally spoken or written in a foreign language.

 

But, when one really wants to know what was actually said in a foreign language rather than just how someone else translated (or rather interpreted) what was said then there really is no substitute for foreign language proficiency. 

 

Quote

I was just saying there is something beautiful in the simplistic nature of Scripture in the heart language. 

I am not familiar with the term 'heart language'?

But, I am aware that 'heart' can sometimes be used to refer to the for lack of other word 'mind', 'thoughts', 'consciousness', or ' internal monologue' and if that is the case then in practice I agree with you in the importance of 'heart language'. For example although my wife has some fluency in English two decades ago when we were still dating I decided to invest time into acquiring her 'heart language' or rather the language that she actually thinks in so I could better understand her for her as well as to giving us another tool to avoid intercultural misunderstandings. That was by far one of the best decisions I have made in my life so far.

 

Regards and as always Grace and Peace to you!

Edited October 15, 2023 by Brian K. Mitchell

[Pastor Jonathan]

The heart language is the native language, so we would agree. 

 

And I don't think we disagree on the original language. 

 

However, to just say, learn the original, while a nice thought and in some ways vital, as a Brethren, we look at the language through the lense of simplicity and what will reach the masses with the truth of the Scripture. 

 

And while I am a minority on this board, the question that started this thread is the very result of the critical text and the myriad of translation. 

 

Please don't assume I am tossing the original. In fact I am a staunch defender of the original in the traditional text, known as the Textus Receptus which underlies the KJV and NKJV for our modern text.

 

So I don't think I am disagreeing with the sentiment, but I don't want to also lose the beauty of having the Scriptures in the common language so even the plow boy can know it. 

 

Just as you learned your wifes' language to speak to her and understand her, I believe that God preserved His word into the language of the people so we can learn of Him better as well. 

 

Prayer, peace and grace to you as well. God bless. 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Pastor Jonathan

[Lawrence]

3 hours ago, Brian K. Mitchell said:

I am not familiar with the term 'heart language'?

 

When people learn multiple languages, some only have utility value - e.g. just so you can order special dishes in an ethnic restaurant.

But some languages really speak to you. Sermons in those languages carry extra depth; nuanced meanings just pop out on their own.

Often, this is the first language one learns, though that's not always the case.

 

Whichever language speaks to you (speaks directly to your heart) - that's your heart language.

[Brian K. Mitchell]

3 hours ago, Pastor Jonathan said:

However, to just say, learn the original, while a nice thought and in some ways vital, as a Brethren, we look at the language through the lense of simplicity and what will reach the masses with the truth of the Scripture. 

Thank you for clarifying your point of view. I guess I approach this issue from a very different vantage point largely because I am neither a pastor/preacher/minister(clergy) nor am I a missionary. I am interested in foreign language acquisition and pedagogy.

 

(POST SCRIPT: However,  I have used Accordance to teach and prepare materials for teaching)

 

3 hours ago, Pastor Jonathan said:

 I don't want to also lose the beauty of having the Scriptures in the common language so even the plow boy can know it. 

 

I, however, believe with perfect and unwavering faith that: "Monolingualism can be cured!" 

 

Regardless of whether one is plow boy or not one can acquire a foreign language or more. For example the polyglot (and later minister) John Brown of Haddington as young lad was employed as a shepherd (because of his families financial troubles) but he used his time to learn Biblical language on his own before he reached the age of 20. As, an adult he learned more languages.

 

What would you lose if more people acquired Biblical languages? Nothing! because this is not an either or situation, translations in the common language can continue to exist and be produced and more people can acquire foreign languages. One process does not exclude the other from occurring. 

 

But, I think that the confusion and or danger that could or might come from too many translation can be easily overcome if more people have the skills to read the text in the original.

 

 

3 hours ago, Pastor Jonathan said:

In fact I am a staunch defender of the original in the traditional text, known as the Textus Receptus which underlies the KJV and NKJV for our modern text.

I do not have these modules in Accordance but you might find these to be of interest (If you do not already have them):

 

(1) Constantine V (Konstantions Valiadis), Metropolitan Michael Kleovoulos of Sardis & Professor Vasileios Antoniades  Greek New Testament better know as The official Greek text published by the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople in 1904 ( Ἡ Καινὴ Διαθήκη ἐγκρίσει τῆς Μεγάλης τοῦ Χριστοῦ Ἐκκλησίας ) (link#1)

 

(2) GNT Robinson Byzantine 2005 (Link#2)

 

(3) GNT-Textus Receptus (tagged) (Link#3)

 

As always grace and peace!

Edited October 15, 2023 by Brian K. Mitchell

[Brian K. Mitchell]

1 hour ago, Lawrence said:

But some languages really speak to you.

Yes, this! I agree! Amen and Amen!

And, this is yet another reason why I think more people should learn other languages so that they can know which languages resinate with them more than others. I think they can also learn a lot about their L1 (native language), too because by language another language they will have something to compare and contrast with their first language.

 

1 hour ago, Lawrence said:

Sermons in those languages carry extra depth; nuanced meanings just pop out on their own.

Often, this is the first language one learns, though that's not always the case. Whichever language speaks to you (speaks directly to your heart) - that's your heart language.

Great point! 

With one little caveat though. Even (or maybe especially) in the cases where sermons/speeches carry extra depth and nuanced meanings it is helpful to have the ability and tools to fact check those messages. That might be Accordance, translations, original languages/and texts, or a combination of any of the afore mentioned.

 

Grace and Peace

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Brian K. Mitchell

[Rick55]

3 hours ago, Pastor Jonathan said:

 

 

Please don't assume I am tossing the original. In fact I am a staunch defender of the original in the traditional text, known as the Textus Receptus which underlies the KJV and NKJV for our modern text.

 

 

 

I am quite fascinated how the translators of the NIV came to the conclusion to publish the following: 

 

KJV Matt. 24.29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

 

NIV Matt. 24.29 ¶ “Immediately after the distress of those days  ¶  “ ‘the sun will be darkened,and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky,

and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’^{a a}

 

Any idea what the NIV translators were thinking to translate bodies instead of powers? 

 

 

The only 'heavenly bodies' I can think of are the uncorrupted bodies in heaven.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Rick55

[Kristin]

7 minutes ago, Rick55 said:

Any idea what the NIV translators were thinking to translate bodies instead of powers? 

 

 

Hi @Rick55,

If I had to guess, I think that they wanted to be clear that the text is referring to stars and planets. Since "heavenly bodies" normally means the random stars, planets, sun, and moon, and the sun and moon were already listed, they took a calculated guess of the meaning of the text. To say "powers" or whatever would suggest angels or something, and again, this is just a guess, but I think the NIV translators had already made the translational decision that the point is stars, hence their translation. I don't agree with that translational style, but that is nonetheless my guess why they did that.

[Rick55]

Thank you Kristin! It's tough to agree with the translation on this verse because;  

 

I understand how stars, planets. etc. could be referred to at as bodies, since we can physically see them.

 

However 'powers' is not something we can actually see. Since we can not physically see the 'force' or 'law' that is holding the stars in place. 

 

The first half of the verse already mentioned stars and the moon "the bodies", but the second half of the verse talks about the 'powers' so I could not see how they came up with a word that you can physically see when the verse is talking about invisible forces. 

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Rick55