Tov's Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, 3rd ed, on sale?

[Enoch]

This is a book I definitely need to add to my library.  But I notice that the "sale" price with Accordance is about $20 above the Amazon book price.  One would expect the electronic book to be cheaper as there is no physical book production cost.  Is there anything about the electronic version which justifies the extra $20?

[theblackbluejay]

Hi Enoch,

 

The value of Tov's book as an Accordance module is that it is an Accordance module: It can be searched over several different fields, it can be read as a book, and it can be much more easily integrated into one's research and workflow. Having this (or any) work in Accordance makes a magnificent work that much more useable and powerful.

 

And it took a lot of work to create the module, including preparing an etext, scanning annd cupyediting the text, checking for errors in multiple languages, etc. It is time and labor intensive, and this is what justifies the increase in price.

 

I hope this helps.

 

David

[Enoch]

Hi Enoch,

 

The value of Tov's book as an Accordance module is that it is an Accordance module: It can be searched over several different fields, it can be read as a book, and it can be much more easily integrated into one's research and workflow. Having this (or any) work in Accordance makes a magnificent work that much more useable and powerful.

 

And it took a lot of work to create the module, including preparing an etext, scanning annd cupyediting the text, checking for errors in multiple languages, etc. It is time and labor intensive, and this is what justifies the increase in price.

 

I hope this helps.

 

David

Thanks David.  Am I wrong in thinking that most modern books already exist in electronic form in the publisher's computer before they are printed & that print paper copies are in fact derived from an electronic version in a computer; thus they should already be sellable as an electronic text.  And is it not possible that Accordance already has the software to do any tagging mostly automatically?

 

Is Accordance reverse-engineering printed books back into electronic versions itself?

 

If Accordance "corrected" errors in original languages, would that not require special copyright permission?

 

I can see that it is a convenience to be able to copy and paste quotations for a research paper or book one is writing.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Enoch

[Helen Brown]

Enoch:

 

Yes, we usually do receive an e-text from the publisher, but that is designed for printing. It does not have the hyperlinks to scripture and other texts. It does not distinguish the different languages, nor the types of content that we need to define for our "fields." We invest many hours of specialized work on each tool so that the module will work as well as it does in Accordance. Yes, we have developed procedures that allow us to do this efficiently, but not automatically by any means. Each book is different and presents different challenges, and those with multiple authors and volumes are even more difficult. Even with publishing guidelines, no two authors follow them exactly. Not to speak of journals where each article in each volume over many years may follow different standards.

[Michael P Finkelstein]

I too find this problematic. A publisher may have prepared the file for print, but I have a very difficult time believing that preparation for print increases work efforts. The software programs used in publishing (InDesign or Quark) are enriched in XML/XHTML. Moreover, they can easily export out to ePub, in which case the data is already encoded by its very unicode markup and accompanying style guide CSS. Now, a simple programming language of any type can easily make the transition between your format and XML (which your explanation above seems to imply you are not using XML which is really quite odd). So to find all the Hebrew would easy be done with a regular expression, such as (([\x{0591}-\x{05FF}])+) or Greek (([\x{0370}-\x{03FF}]|[\x{1F00}-\x{1FFF}])+). So perhaps the real issue is that Accordance needs to adopt XHTML and CSS thereby reducing the efforts it takes to add a work into the Accordance infrastructure. This would reduce costs to the users, and also bring many updates to the program.

 

Another thing, I find the fields helpful, but actually quite a nuisance at times. This is not stay that data should not be tagged, but only that most often I know what I am looking for by the very basis of what is that I am asking. However, it is an overly complicated task to sometimes determine what field you have allocated the data. I can run a search all for the words I need to look up and get to what I am looking at quicker than cycling through the fields (and or having to worry about whether data has been incorrectly tagged which has happened several times to me!). So, please can you create a search all field in the tools? or why not simple let me use command+f to search inline for what I looking for.

 

All of this to say, if the fields cause an increase in price and the fields are somewhat clunky in how they are set up, why not revise the programs to help your users have access to material at a cheaper rate and in a way that is more elegant to use?

[Michel Gilbert]

Hi,

 

My 2¢ in Acc's defence:

 

First, it is $90 from the publisher, http://fortresspress.com/product/textual-criticism-hebrew-bible-third-edition-revised-and-expanded .

 

Second, I don’t know what Acc takes into account to arrive at their price points, but it must take a holistic approach, i.e., profitable Modules help pay for those that don't break even. I have a suspicion that one of the latter is the Hebrew syntax database, so I'm grateful for the profitable items.

 

Finally, everyone has to decide for themselves how much value an electronic edition adds.

 

Regards,

 

Michel

[Timothy Jenney]

We work hard to identify books that are valuable enough to perform our "Accordance magic" on and include them in our offerings. That said, our customers can always choose for themselves whether each resource is worth the price. Most often they have an array of other choices: hardback, paperback, new, used, Kindle, PDF, iBook, etc. They buy resources in Accordance because they like the way we tag them and integrate them into their Accordance library.

[Michael P Finkelstein]

Dear Timothy Jenney,

 

I don't think anyone is disputing whether there is an option to buy a print or electronic version. I moreover am doubtful that anyone disputes the value of a tagged resource. What I think is questionable in this case is the claim that extensive work was involved in tagged the resource. It would only be extensive if Accordance is using a rather outdated mechanism of information structure. I know about this since I have a degree in information structure. I think the tools are interesting, even though I am mainly interested in ancient material. I can give a very good example of, in this case, how a print version is much better than Accordance's digital version. If I were look up in DCH a rather long article, and want specifically to get the hiphil discussion of a given lemma, I can quickly scan the page to find the section. In Accordance, one has to scroll down and down, and cannot simply call up an inline search (from the current position) to "hiphil" to get the location in the article. It's actually more convenient to use the print! So, my point is that your "magic" needs some refining—and we must be clear this is markup and not magic. Sorry, I am more to the letter than the spirit.

[Rick Bennett]

Hi Michael (and Enoch),

 

I could go into extensive detail to answer some of your questions, but suffice it to say that we are very well aware of how to perform regex substitutions, in addition to utilizing desktop publishing software. And we're also knowledgable about electronic book standards, extensible markup languages, etc. While some resources are very straightforward in terms of our development, others simply are not. And, incidentally, Tov's TCHB was one such resource that did require more extensive work than other titles, not only in terms of handling original languages, but also in terms of layout. 

 

Also, as it specifically relates to this title, I can say that for now you will not find this book in another electronic format at the author's request. Even with our long term relationship with him, we had to work to assure him we would create an electronic version virtually identical (even down to letter spacing in certain areas!) to his print version. He simply did not trust that electronic formats (especially ePub / Kindle) would be able represent his work as he intended.

 

Lastly, Michael, regarding your DCH query, a workaround is to select the desired lexeme from the TOC, right-click, and 'select range.' Then perform a search for the desired term in English Content (e.g. Hiphil, Ni, etc.).

 

Thanks for the feedback.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Rick Bennett

[Michel Gilbert]

 

 . . . we had to work to assure him we would create an electronic version virtually identical (even down to letter spacing in certain areas!) to his print version. He simply did not trust that electronic formats (especially ePub / Kindle) would be able represent his work as he intended.

 

 

Very interesting, and good for him!

 

Edit: I wish more Modules were prepared this way, just because I'm already familiar with their layouts. I would be tempted to buy more electronic books if that were the case.

 

Regards,

 

Michel

Edited November 30, 2015 by Michel Gilbert

[Rick Bennett]

Very interesting, and good for him!

 

Edit: I wish more Modules were prepared this way, just because I'm already familiar with their layouts. I would be tempted to buy more electronic books if that were the case.

 

Regards,

 

Michel

 

Generally speaking this is the case for all modules. We always strive to maintain consistency with the print counterpart as far as is possible within the constraints of Accordance's capabilities. The only real difference here is that the author of the work was directly involved with ensuring this was the case, and whom we would have to answer directly to if otherwise.

[Michael P Finkelstein]

Thanks for the feedback. Thanks for the suggestion, and what bothers me is that "workarounds" are always suggested for deficiencies. I've seen this a lot since joining this forum.—no shortage of articles appear by searching "workaround." I suppose I will then ask that the program receive as much attention to detail as this resource. Thanks.

[Rick Bennett]

Thanks for the feedback. Thanks for the suggestion, and what bothers me is that "workarounds" are always suggested for deficiencies. I've seen this a lot since joining this forum.—no shortage of articles appear by searching "workaround." I suppose I will then ask that the program receive as much attention to detail as this resource. Thanks.

 

If you see here, you'll note that a similar feature is already on the list for development. The workaround was intended as a temporary option, not a dismissal of the request.

[Michel Gilbert]

Generally speaking this is the case for all modules. We always strive to maintain consistency with the print counterpart as far as is possible within the constraints of Accordance's capabilities. The only real difference here is that the author of the work was directly involved with ensuring this was the case, and whom we would have to answer directly to if otherwise.

 

Hi Rick,

 

I meant the same page layout with the same page numbers, same headers and footers, marginal notes (if any), etc., so it would look exactly like the printed edition on a monitor turned to portrait mode, e.g., I always wanted a facsimile of BHS, with the Masorah and the apparatus.  

 

I'm sure that the text of most of your Modules appears the same as their printed editions. But without the headers and footers, etc., they still appear as long columns. I guess it is the same for Tov's book, but you took extra care with the spacing.

 

I was just reflecting, and not asking for anything.

 

[Edit: I took you quite literally when you said "virtually identical." But I see now you were talking about the text only. My mistake]

 

Regards,

 

Michel

Edited November 30, 2015 by Michel Gilbert

[Brian K. Mitchell]

 I always wanted a facsimile of BHS, with the Masorah and the apparatus.  

Now, that would be interesting. I would love to have a BHS with it's edited Masora Parva, and the Mm register, too. I already have the apparatus.

Accordance's BHQ modules while not facsimile editions, do come with the masora.