Translation summary analytics for MT-LXX parallel

[Susan]

I have been working with Tony Pyles' very helpful instructions and workspace described on this thread for using the MT-LXX interlinear module to analyze Greek-Hebrew correspondence between the MT and LXX using merged searches. From what I gather, there is currently no way to generate a summary table showing how a particular Greek or Hebrew term is translated. (It is hinted there that this may be available in BW, although I have no personal knowledge of that.) Is there any chance we’ll be able to do this in the future? 

 

(Currently the analytics that show up in an a MT-LXX tab merged to a search in one of the texts only show me the hits per book, nothing about the way the word is translated. If I merge it with lemma searches in both texts I can limit the hits to a particular correspondence, but this is a different from being able to see the variety of correspondences summarized. Please do let me know if there’s already a way to do this that I’m missing. Thanks!)

[Timothy Jenney]

Hah!

 

Susan, your request is timely.

 

I am working on a podcast for the [MERGE ?] command, which uses the MT/LXX database. I noticed the very same thing. I would have really liked an Analysis pane. My own search was Hebrew אדני in the source pane and Greek [MERGE MT-LXX Parallel 3] <NOT> (κυριε, κυριος) in the target pane. I wondered what the other Greek equivalents the LXX used were. Right now, there is no way to list them automatically.

 

I'll second this request.

Edited July 31, 2015 by Timothy Jenney

[Dieudonne]

+1

[Emanuel Cardona]

+1

[Susan]

 

I am working on a podcast for the [MERGE ?] command, which uses the MT/LXX database. I noticed the very same thing. I would have really liked an Analysis pane. My own search was Hebrew אדני in the source pane and Greek [MERGE MT-LXX Parallel 3] <NOT> (κυριε, κυριος) in the target pane. I wondered what the other Greek equivalents the LXX used were. Right now, there is no way to list them automatically.

 

I'll second this request.

 

 

That’s great! I’m glad to hear this might happen. If, in the process, you think it might be feasible to include the Column B “retroverted” Hebrew results in addition to (in parallel with) the MT results (I recently opined about this on another thread) in the analysis that is generated when going from Greek to Hebrew, that would be even better! 

[Timothy Jenney]

Susan,

 

I am afraid you have lost me. I did search the LXX and find the HMT equivalents, as you can see below. What were you looking for in addition to this?

 

BTW, I have been using Accordance for so long I have forgotten the name of the print book that I used to use for these kinds of things. Does anyone remember its name?

 

[Susan]

 

BTW, I have been using Accordance for so long I have forgotten the name of the print book that I used to use for these kinds of things. Does anyone remember its name?

 

 

Do you mean Hatch and Redpath?

 

Let me see if I can figure out how to make a screenshot showing what I mean about the retroversions. 

[Timothy Jenney]

That's it!!!

 

Thank you.

 

Paid an arm and a leg for it. Got Accordance. Gave it away.

[Susan]

 

 

I am afraid you have lost me. I did search the LXX and find the HMT equivalents, as you can see below. What were you looking for in addition to this?

 

 

Timothy Jenney, on 31 Jul 2015 - 1:01 PM, said:

 

 For some reason I can’t figure out how to upload images properly. In any case, here’s a screenshot of Jonah 1:9:

 

http://i.imgur.com/auqQrT1.png

 

On the third row the MT reads עִבְרִי and the LXX reads δοῦλος κυρίου. It’s probable that the LXX translator either mis-read dalet for resh or was in possession of a Hebrew text that differed from the MT, so that he saw עבד. (Via the superscripts it goes on to point out that the yod was possibly understood as an abbreviation for י׳.)  

 

If one did a search for δουλος, this and I think several other instances in the MT would indicate that it corresponds to עִבְרִי, but this is unlikely how the translator was thinking of it. Tov has included the “retroverted” Hebrew that the translator “saw” (עבד) in what I think is called “Column B” in the CATSS tool. In trying to figure out what Hebrew correlates with what Greek, this is more useful (on one level) than knowing the probably spurious connection between עברי and δουλος, which I believe is what H&R would give you. I’m suggesting that it would be nice to see the results using the retroverted Hebrew in addition to the MT Hebrew. 

 

Does that make any sense?

 

(For anybody who like this sort of thing, please see module request The Text-Critical Use of the Septuagint in Biblical Research.  )

Edited July 31, 2015 by Susan

[Timothy Jenney]

Susan, your explanation does make sense. Thank you.

 

What I believe you want to search is the "Reconstructions" data field. See the screenshot below, where I searched both the Hebrew (MT) and Tov's reconstructions. Using your example, I searched for Heb. עבד in either one.

 

 

 

BTW, we're working to license the Tov book, too.

[Λύχνις Δαν]

Hi ya,

 

  I support the enhancement request. +1 there for sure.

  But while I was playing with MT/LXX and my fledgling Hebrew and Jonah 1:9 example I was able to produce this :

 

אדני    βάσεις
אדני‎    {...καὶ αἱ βάσεις αὐτῶν}52
אדני    βάσεις
אדני    --- ''13
~20 אדני =22ארבעה    τέσσαρες [37.4]18
את אדני‎    κεφαλίδων [39.4]18
אדני    τὰς κεφαλίδας [39.4]18
את אדני‎    τὰς βάσεις [39.7]18
ו/את אדני‎    καὶ τὰς βάσεις [39.8]18
ו/את אדני‎    καὶ τὰς βάσεις [39.8]18
אדני צדק‎ .j74    αδωνιβεζεκ
‏אדני צדק‎ =:24‏אדני בזק    αδωνιβεζεκ
--+12 =;23אדני    τοῦ κυρίου
‏אדני‎    τοῦ κυρίου
‏אדני/ך‎    τοῦ ἄρχοντός σου
‏ל/אדני‎    τῷ κυρίῳ [135.3]18
אדני    βάσεις
 

  It looks better in the tool where its columnar format is clearer. This is not a unique list order by either Greek or Hebrew though an enterprising soul could hack a Unicode sort in Python pretty quickly. But perhaps this is a useful summary. Just set Show Text As to Paragraph in the MT/LXX with the query :

 

 

Oops: forgot to mention my HMT tab search was "אדני"

 

Thx

D

Edited August 1, 2015 by Daniel Semler

[Susan]

That's it!!!

 

Thank you.

 

Paid an arm and a leg for it. Got Accordance. Gave it away.

 

Do you think we’ve replaced Hatch and Redpath in Accordance? Don’t get me wrong, I’d take Accordance’s search capabilities rather than H&R any day, but it seems to me that there is something H&R offers that Accordance still (at this point) does not - giving an overview of how a lexeme is translated throughout the LXX. For instance, here is the first page (second page, third page) of the δοuλος entry. At the top it offers a list of the various Hebrew lexemes thus translated, and then by glancing through the concordance, you can see that the majority are 2b (noun עבד), with a few verbal forms from the same root (2a), and much less commonly other variations on that root and a few distinct ones.

 

Accordance has all of the information to make something like this (and better! - especially given the existence of the “reconstructions” column), but to me until we have some sort of Analysis pane summarizing the translation choices, to me it doesn’t quite do that.  The workspace created by Tony Pyles and the method outlined by Daniel Semier above both bring us close, but it still seems (relative to other Accordance functions) a wee bit more complicated than it needs to be. 

 

(For those who are interested, here is a handy index of H&R page scans. Although it’s public domain, only the Supplement is available on archive.org for some reason.) 

 

 

What I believe you want to search is the "Reconstructions" data field.

 

 

Thank you! I didn’t even realize that field was searchable. Let’s make those results “analyzable” too!

 

 

BTW, we're working to license the Tov book, too.

 

Yay!

Edited August 2, 2015 by Susan