What module is needed to do frequency graph for LXX-Rahlfs?

[Caleb Wachsmuth]

I only see GNT-Textus Receptus as of now. Screenshot below:

 

[Brian K. Mitchell]

Greetings @Caleb Wachsmuth

 
  You need the following or at least something like it:

 

Greek Septuagint (Rahlfs) revised and tagged. Prod ID: LXX1

Price: $89.90

https://www.accordancebible.com/product/greek-septuagint-rahlfs-revised-and-tagged/

 

 

 

 

[Caleb Wachsmuth]

1 hour ago, Brian K. Mitchell said:

Greetings @Caleb Wachsmuth

 
  You need the following or at least something like it:

 

Greek Septuagint (Rahlfs) revised and tagged. Prod ID: LXX1

Price: $89.90

https://www.accordancebible.com/product/greek-septuagint-rahlfs-revised-and-tagged/

 

 

 

 

Brian, thank you for your response!

 

I have the upgraded version though, which is why I am confused.

Does the more expensive LXX1+2+apparatus not contain the ability to do this?

Link: https://www.accordancebible.com/product/lxx-rahlfs-tagged-text-lxx1-2-with-apparatus/

Edited July 15 by Caleb Wachsmuth

[Brian K. Mitchell]

@Caleb Wachsmuth all versions of the LXX or anyother text (cheap or expensive) should be able do what you want.

 

(1) first open your LXX

(2) double click on a word (and popup search option box should appear)

 

 

 

(3) run your search

 

(4) selected the pie chart you see in the 'search entery' space and then choose your option.

 

Depending on what you picked you will get one or more of the following:

 

 

or

 

 

or

 

 

I hope this helps,

but if not or if I misunderstood what you are trying to accomplish please let me know and we can try again.

 

[Caleb Wachsmuth]

17 hours ago, Brian K. Mitchell said:

@Caleb Wachsmuth all versions of the LXX or anyother text (cheap or expensive) should be able do what you want.

 

(1) first open your LXX

(2) double click on a word (and popup search option box should appear)

 

 

 

(3) run your search

 

(4) selected the pie chart you see in the 'search entery' space and then choose your option.

 

Depending on what you picked you will get one or more of the following:

 

 

or

 

 

or

 

 

I hope this helps,

but if not or if I misunderstood what you are trying to accomplish please let me know and we can try again.

 

@Brian K. Mitchell,

 

Thank you so much for the step-by-step guide, I certainly did learn a few things.

 

Maybe it's just not possible under Word Study but only under Analytics.

 

Best,

Caleb W

Edited July 15 by Caleb Wachsmuth

[Dr. Nathan Parker]

I think it is possible under Word Study. I'd have to think about that one.

[Lorinda H. M. Hoover]

Is this what you are looking for?  I selected a word (you can see it still selected), two-finger clicked/right clicked/control clicked and chose Word Study, then clicked the down arrow to the left of "Frequency Graph" in the Word Study tab.

[Caleb Wachsmuth]

2 hours ago, Lorinda H. M. Hoover said:

Is this what you are looking for?  I selected a word (you can see it still selected), two-finger clicked/right clicked/control clicked and chose Word Study, then clicked the down arrow to the left of "Frequency Graph" in the Word Study tab.

 

Yes! Now all of a sudden it is working. It may have been the word I chose originally was not in the LXX.

 

Thank you @Lorinda H. M. Hoover!

[Caleb Wachsmuth]

No wait, I see what is happening after some more testing. Not sure if this is an issue with Accordance or not. Word Study frequencies work when right-clicking from LXX-Rahlfs. But let's say I am doing an English Word study for "child," and go to "text compare," "word pie graph," etc. Now only GNT shows and not LXX. I am assuming that my original post was done this way as I can replicate it with any English Word Study trying to show what it translates to in LXX. Is there any way to do that would be my new question? @Dr. Nathan Parker

[Dr. Nathan Parker]

Good question. Can you walk me through the steps where it worked and didn't work for you? I'll test it.

[Lorinda H. M. Hoover]

On 7/15/2024 at 7:06 PM, Caleb Wachsmuth said:

No wait, I see what is happening after some more testing. Not sure if this is an issue with Accordance or not. Word Study frequencies work when right-clicking from LXX-Rahlfs. But let's say I am doing an English Word study for "child," and go to "text compare," "word pie graph," etc. Now only GNT shows and not LXX. I am assuming that my original post was done this way as I can replicate it with any English Word Study trying to show what it translates to in LXX. Is there any way to do that would be my new question? @Dr. Nathan Parker

I’m away from my computer for the next several days, but I have some ideas to consider and some more questions for you that may narrow this down. It does mean some leg work for you that I would normally try myself, but can’t at that moment.

 

At first I thought it might be related to the fact there there is no Strong’s tagging for the LXX, since English texts rely on Strongs or G/K tagging to allow for original language connections.  But, I see that the Apostolic Fathers (Lightfoot) is on the list above, and the English versons are not STrong’s tagged, so I would presume it shouldn’t show up if this hunch of mine was correct.

 

So, that leads me to these questions:

What English translations are you trying from?  Are they Strongs or G/K tagged?

Are the passages you are using from the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible or from the New Testament?

What happens if you do a word study from a tagged English translation, in a passage in the NT, and you use a word whose Greek original we know to be in the LXX?  So, for example, “did” in Matthew 1:24 (NRSV-S) which translates ποιεω?

[Caleb Wachsmuth]

3 hours ago, Lorinda H. M. Hoover said:

I’m away from my computer for the next several days, but I have some ideas to consider and some more questions for you that may narrow this down. It does mean some leg work for you that I would normally try myself, but can’t at that moment.

 

At first I thought it might be related to the fact there there is no Strong’s tagging for the LXX, since English texts rely on Strongs or G/K tagging to allow for original language connections.  But, I see that the Apostolic Fathers (Lightfoot) is on the list above, and the English versons are not STrong’s tagged, so I would presume it shouldn’t show up if this hunch of mine was correct.

 

So, that leads me to these questions:

What English translations are you trying from?  Are they Strongs or G/K tagged?

Are the passages you are using from the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible or from the New Testament?

What happens if you do a word study from a tagged English translation, in a passage in the NT, and you use a word whose Greek original we know to be in the LXX?  So, for example, “did” in Matthew 1:24 (NRSV-S) which translates ποιεω?

@Lorinda H. M. Hoover to answer your questions. The English translation I most use is NASB95 with Strongs tagged, I was using OT passages as I was comparing Hebrew and LXX. I am thinking it may be a fact that LXX is not tagged after doing the test you suggested with Matt. 1:24.

[Caleb Wachsmuth]

8 hours ago, Dr. Nathan Parker said:

Good question. Can you walk me through the steps where it worked and didn't work for you? I'll test it.

@Dr. Nathan Parker,

 

I think @Lorinda H. M. Hoover was correct in that since LXX-Rahlfs is not tagged with Strong or G/K numbering, that it will not work since whenever I did the English word study it was by "Key Number." It works whenever I do Greek word study but that's by "root" not "Key number" which I guess, weird as it is, works from Greek->Eng but not vice-versa. Yet, the question I have now is, how come English texts can understand when I do a Greek word study for (e.g. +ποιέω) but LXX cannot do the same when I use a "key number" or just the "word"?

 

Does that sound right?

 

Best,
Caleb W

Edited July 17 by Caleb Wachsmuth

[Lorinda H. M. Hoover]

@Caleb Wachsmuth Thanks for more specifics.  When I get back to my computer, I’ll do some experimenting.

 

In the meantime, you might want to take a look at the MT-LXX Interlinear and the MT-LXX Parallel modules available from Accordance.  Without experimenting, I don’t know if they will do precisely what you want here, but they are very helpful for comparing MT and LXX (Hebrew and Greek) wordings in the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible. 

 

Note that the MT-LXX Interlinear is a scaled down version of the MT-LXX Parallel, with fewer features.  You don’t need both.  You can start with the MT-LXX Interlinear and upgrade to the Parallel module later, which is what I did.    Once I’m back to my computer, I’ll see what happens for me with Word studies in that regard, since I have the fuller featured of the two MT-LXX modules.  (Who you might want to wait to purchase until I am able to test things out and get back to you). 

 

If I haven’t updated here by Monday or Tuesday of next week, feel free to either bump this thread or to PM me to remind me. 

[Dr. Nathan Parker]

I'm a little stumped. Let me bring in the genius, @Ken Simpson, on this one!

[Lorinda H. M. Hoover]

On 7/16/2024 at 11:03 PM, Caleb Wachsmuth said:

@Dr. Nathan Parker,

 

I think @Lorinda H. M. Hoover was correct in that since LXX-Rahlfs is not tagged with Strong or G/K numbering, that it will not work since whenever I did the English word study it was by "Key Number." It works whenever I do Greek word study but that's by "root" not "Key number" which I guess, weird as it is, works from Greek->Eng but not vice-versa. Yet, the question I have now is, how come English texts can understand when I do a Greek word study for (e.g. +ποιέω) but LXX cannot do the same when I use a "key number" or just the "word"?

 

Does that sound right?

 

Best,
Caleb W

Back at my computer and I've experimented a bit. 

 

In terms of why it seems to work in some directions an not in others, it is all related to key numbers.  Accordance is set up to link the Greek word/lemma from their key number databases to the lemmas of grammatically tagged texts. 

 

So, if I am working with 2 Cor 9:6-10 in the NA28 GNT, and choose to do a lexeme word study on σπείροντι in verse 10, when I want to add additional texts to the frequency graph, my options include both all the Greek texts owned, and all the  Strong's or G/K modern language texts owned.   Note, however, that when you check the frequency graphs for key number tagged modern Bibles, none of them will show any hits in the OT/Hebrew Bible, even though σπείρω occurs in the LXX.  Why?  Because in the OT/Hebrew Bible, Key number tagging is for the Hebrew Text. 

 

Note that if you do a lexeme word search on a Greek word in the LXX (say, σπεῖρον from Genesis 1:11), you will see the same list of options, but if you choose Modern Keyed numbered text, you will get "No results found," even though the lexeme does appear in the NT.  This is because there is no key number connection, because no LXX texts have key numbers.  And no LXX texts have key numbers because neither Strong's nor G/K cover all the lexemes in the Septuagint.

 

My owning the MT/LXX parallel does not appear to change my options in the Word Study.  

 

In terms of this example you provided:

 

Quote

But let's say I am doing an English Word study for "child," and go to "text compare," "word pie graph," etc. Now only GNT shows and not LXX. I am assuming that my original post was done this way as I can replicate it with any English Word Study trying to show what it translates to in LXX. Is there any way to do that would be my new question?

 

Here's a way to get to that:

Do a search for child in the NASB95-S

Use the Go to box in the bottom right of the tab to get to Matthew occurrences

Do a Key Number word study on child in Matthew 2:8 [earlier occurrences are problematic for various reasons]

Under Word Info in the word study tab there should be a Definition section, pulling from a key number dictionary (mine is set to Mounce); click on the More... that appears there; a new tab will appear, providing the full dictionary/lexicon entry, including the Greek lexeme.  Copy that and paste it into a new LXX search tab.

To see how those LXX uses are translated back into English, you would need the NETS, the Brenton LXX, or SAAS (the latter only available with the Orthodox Study Bible) in parallel to the LXX text, although there won't be any cross highlighting since there is no key numbering. There would. however, be cross highlighting between the LXX and the Hebrew text IFF you owned the MT-LXX Interlinear.  And, IFF you had the MT-LXX Interninear, and had LXX, Hebrew, and a tagged modern Bible in parallel panes, there would be English cross highlighting as well, although that would based on the Hebrew lexeme and key numbers for the Hebrew text.  (See this forum thread)

 

I hope that's helpful.  

 

@Dr. Nathan Parker There does seem to be an oddity here: when doing a key number word study from a NT passage, the list of options for compare texts, frequency graphs, etc. include non-Biblical Greek texts such as Apostolic Fathers, Pseudepigrapha, Gregory of Nyssa, etc., but not the LXX.  Those all return "No Results Found," even if the underlying Greek word is in those texts. Realistically, those texts should not appear.  But given that they do, I don't understand why the LXX does not. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dr. Nathan Parker]

Thanks! I'll have Ken take a look and see what input he can provide.

[Ken Simpson]

On 7/19/2024 at 8:21 AM, Dr. Nathan Parker said:

I'm a little stumped. Let me bring in the genius, @Ken Simpson, on this one!

Hey Nathan, I am most embarrassed by that! I'm no genius, just a user with experience!!! (ie I'm old and been using accordance for a LONG time)

 

 

 

[Ken Simpson]

I must admit I am feeling particularly obtuse.

On 7/16/2024 at 10:06 AM, Caleb Wachsmuth said:

No wait, I see what is happening after some more testing. Not sure if this is an issue with Accordance or not. Word Study frequencies work when right-clicking from LXX-Rahlfs. But let's say I am doing an English Word study for "child," and go to "text compare," "word pie graph," etc. Now only GNT shows and not LXX. I am assuming that my original post was done this way as I can replicate it with any English Word Study trying to show what it translates to in LXX. Is there any way to do that would be my new question? @Dr. Nathan Parker

Hi,

please don't listen to Nathan (on this issue). I'm no genius, I'm just someone who loves playing with Accordance. I am not on the inside of tagging methods and I have never done Bible development nor tool development (though I have asked!).

 

However, the issue is that there is no OL LXX that has been keyed to a Strongs or Goodrich/Kohlenberger system.  So the word study system won't allow you to search in a text that has no appropriate field.

 

You can search for the word in NETS and then find the word in LXX then search LXX and analyse/word study, but that is more clumsy I admit

 

Is there a reason you don't use the standard analysis tools at the right hand end of the search bar? I must admit I rarely use the word study feature.

 

Happy for more experienced users to make more intelligent comments.

[Dr. Nathan Parker]

Thanks @Ken Simpson! I would say you're being modest. In my eyes, you're a genius. You've always done such a fantastic job answering questions I get stumped on. I've learned more about Accordance reading your posts. You've been such a blessing to the Accordance Forums. I always appreciate your insights.