key number search Key Number Search Gives results beyond Key

[jkdoyle]

When I search the NT range for paradidomai [KEY G3860], I'm getting results in the Concordance that are not connected. These seem to be related to NDT(?) and then simply Greek words that are not connected to paradidomai. For example, in this case there is only one verse that contains paradidomai or the key G3860 (1 Peter 2.23):

committed  (1)
    Matt 5.28     her has already committed adultery with her    NDT
    Mark 15.7     rebels who had committed murder during    G4160
    John 9.2     who committed the sin that caused him to    NDT
    Acts 25.8     “I have committed no offense against the    G264
    Rom 1.27     Men committed shameless acts with men    G2716
    Rom 3.25     passed over the sins previously committed.    G4266
    Heb 6.6     then have committed apostasy, to renew    NDT
    Heb 9.7     sins of the people committed in ignorance.    NDT
    Heb 9.15     from the violations committed under the first    NDT
    Jas 5.15     if he has committed sins, he will be    G4160
    1 Pet 2.22     He committed no sin nor was deceit found    G4160
    1 Pet 2.23     committed himself to God who judges    G3860
    Jude 15     ungodly deeds that they have committed,    G764
    Rev 17.2     of the earth committed sexual immorality    NDT
    Rev 18.3     the earth have committed sexual immorality    NDT
    Rev 18.9     the earth who committed immoral acts with    NDT

 

I'm trying to show a friend who does not know original languages how they can use the Key search. For him, he would have known these were not uses of nor terms directly related to paradidomai, so that's problematic. Any help or advice would be appreciated.

Edited March 15, 2022 by jkdoyle
added note on 1 Peter 2.23

[Kristin]

Hi @jkdoyle,

Did you try this more than once? From your list, it looks as though the word was accidentally searched instead of the key. I searched [KEY G3860] and I am not getting any false hits.

[jkdoyle]

10 hours ago, Kristin said:

Hi @jkdoyle,

Did you try this more than once? From your list, it looks as though the word was accidentally searched instead of the key. I searched [KEY G3860] and I am not getting any false hits.

 Yes. Multiple times. To be clear: there are no false hits in the search results in the text pane. The issue is in the concordance list.

The results look different depending on which text I'm searching, so in the NET it lists them in columns (as in my first post). In the ESV the 'committed' result is no longer in columns, but just a list of references (which strangely include the OT references even though my selected range in only NT). Note below that the NT references from the ESV search are similar but not quite the same as those above in the NET search using [KEY G3860]:

 

Quote

committed
    Gen 40:1; Lev 4:3, 14, 23, 28, 35; 5:5–7, 10–11, 13; 6:4; 19:22; 20:12–13; 26:40; Num 5:7; Deut 9:18; 19:15; 21:22; 22:26; Josh 22:16, 31; Judg 9:56; 20:6, 10; 1 Kgs 8:50; 14:22, 27; 16:19; 2 Kgs 21:11, 17; 2 Chr 12:10; 34:16; Neh 9:18, 26; Ps 106:6; Eccl 5:9; Jer 2:13; 5:7; 6:15; 8:12; 11:20; 16:10; 20:12; 29:23; 37:21; 40:7; 41:10; 44:3, 9, 22; Ezek 6:9; 9:4; 16:43, 51; 17:20; 18:21–22, 24, 27–28, 31; 20:43; 22:29; 23:37; 33:16, 29; 43:8; 44:13; Dan 9:7; Mal 2:11; Matt 5:28; Mark 15:7; Acts 8:3; 14:23; 25:8, 11; Rom 6:17; Heb 9:15; Jas 5:15; 1 Pet 2:22; 2 Pet 2:4; Jude 1:15; Rev 17:2; 18:3, 9; 20:4

 

Note that these results are mixed, with some of them containing paradidomai (Acts 8.3; Rom 6.17; 2 Pet 2.4) and others not (Matt 5:28; Mark 15:7; 14:23; Acts 25:8, 11; Heb 9:15; Jas 5:15; 1 Pet 2:22;  Jude 1:15; Rev 17:2; 18:3, 9; 20:4). 

Here are images of what I have entered and some of the results that I have mentioned (results not containing G3860/paradidomai; different results from different English texts; ESV results show OT verses though NT range is selected):
 

Edited March 16, 2022 by jkdoyle

[Kristin]

Hi @jkdoyle,

I see, thanks for clarifying. To be honest, I have never really used the Concordance function for the reason you said. If I search the lexeme, key, construct search, etc, it is fine. As soon as I would open Concordance, however, I would have issues like you are describing.

 

I had originally had issues where a Greek key was finding OT hits, but then someone here said I needed to use a range to fix that, so then I figured the false hits were user error also, but maybe not. Maybe @Tech Support can provide clarification.

[jkdoyle]

1 hour ago, Kristin said:

I had originally had issues where a Greek key was finding OT hits, but then someone here said I needed to use a range to fix that, so then I figured the false hits were user error also, but maybe not.

 

Yeah, so strange. As you can see in the images, I'm using the range feature (not the command), and I am still getting OT results in the ESV.

I rarely use English for searches, but I wanted to help my friend who uses only English rather than original languages. This is problematic. If users don't know original languages, how would they know these are incorrect listings?

[Mark Allison]

A few things:

1. "NDT" stands for "Not Directly Translated"
 

2. The concordance works like a standard concordance in the back of a printed bible. It's going to take every "hit" word in your original search and show you every instance of that word (whether or not it corresponds to the key number you searched for). 

3. If you go to your concordance display settings (command-T on a Mac, control-T on a PC), you can choose to have the words displayed in your search range, or in the text as a whole. You can also choose the display threshold of your verse excerpts. If you want verse excerpts all the time, set "Text Excerpts" at 10,000. 

Edited March 16, 2022 by Mark Allison

[jkdoyle]

6 hours ago, Mark Allison said:

A few things:

1. "NDT" stands for "Not Directly Translated"
 

2. The concordance works like a standard concordance in the back of a printed bible. It's going to take every "hit" word in your original search and show you every instance of that word (whether or not it corresponds to the key number you searched for).

 

Mark

 

I guess I don't understand a few things about this. On point 2 above, the word I'm searching for is a KEY, which corresponds to a particular Greek word, correct? Otherwise, what is it? I'm not searching for an English word but [KEY G3860]. Shouldn't only verses with that corresponding Greek word appear in the Concordance as it does in the Search pane ( Search Results verses  search_results_g3860.pd = Concordance verse list  concordance_results_G3860.pdf)? Why would the Concordance contain other results than the text results of the search? I had an assumption (as I think many users would) that for non-original-language users that the [KEY ????] search is a way of getting as close as they can?

 

Quote

 'It's going to take every "hit" word in your original search and show you every instance of that word (whether or not it corresponds to the key number you searched for).'

 

But the problem is that the Concordance results are showing verses (lots of them) where the KEY word is nowhere in the verse, translated or not. In this particular case paradidomai [KEY G3860] does not occur in most of the verses but they are listed in the Concordance (see the attached PDF concordance_results_G3860.pdf). I understand that this might happen if I did an English search for something like "hand over", "give up", "pass down", etc., where all kind of English equivalent, similar, or sub-words like "give" might show up. However, searching by a KEY seems, again, like it should only be looking for that particular term. There is no paradidomai [G3860] or related term in Matthew 5:28, but it shows up in the Concordance for G3860 in NET, ESV, NRSV, etc. I can't imagine looking at any reliable concordance for a word and finding a verse where that word is nowhere present. It seems to me that a search for G3860 should have the Concordance results in the Concordance as a search of paradidomai in UBS5 (or whatever base Greek text, see attached PDF concordance_results_paradidomai.pdf).
 

Quote

3. If you go to your concordance display settings (command-T on a Mac, control-T on a PC), you can choose to have the words displayed in your search range, or in the text as a whole. You can also choose the display threshold of your verse excerpts. If you want verse excerpts all the time, set "Text Excerpts" at 10,000. 

 

I'm not how this applies to the issue overall, other than including or not including by default only references in the ranges already selected (which seems like it should automatically happen).  If I select the range of New Testament or a user-created 'Romans' range, why would results outside of that range show up by default?

 

What I really am looking for is:

1. Is there an issue with the concordance and [KEY ????] searches, because this seems like it would be confusing to users or create errors for those who don't realize the KEYs being searched are not in the actual verse hits in the Concordance if this is the way it actually works and
2. If this is the way it works, what help/instructions can I give to friends who want to do single word searches but do not know the originals and only want Concordance results that include the actual word they are looking for.

Thanks

Jimmy

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by jkdoyle

[Mark Allison]

Jimmy,

 

When you perform a [KEY] search for a Greek or Hebrew word (let's use the ESVS and [KEY apoluo] as examples), the results in the analysis window will be:

away = 9
depart = 1

departed = 1

dismissed = 5

divorce = 4

divorced = 2

divorces = 6

forgive = 1

forgiven = 1

free = 1

freed = 1

go = 5

liberty = 1

off = 2

release = 16

released = 6

send = 1

sending = 1

sent = 2

 

The concordance will then display all the verses containing each of these English words, either within your search range, or throughout the entire text (that's your choice).

If I'm understanding you correctly, you'd like the concordance to reflect exactly what's in your original search tab. I don't understand the value in that.

If all you want is a list of verse references containing your original hits, set the display of your search tab to "References only". Alternately, if you want to copy just the references themselves, simply select all the verses in your initial hit window and select Copy as—>References.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Mark Allison

[jkdoyle]

What I would like is a Concordance list that shows the verses and the synopsis of those verses limited to those containing the original language KEY term I searched for, broken down by how that word is used/translated in the English (like the other analysis tools do). Since I'm searching for a Greek or Hebrew word, and not an English word, to me it makes sense that a concordance would reflect what I'm actually searching for. It is confusing that all the other analysis tools (hits graph, analysis list and graph, bar chart, pie chart, table, table chart) limit results to the searched term but the concordance does not. I think most users would assume that the pie chart or analysis graph, for example, is a visual representation of what is found in the concordance.

 

I do also understand that if I were searching for an English or non-original language term, that a concordance would reflect that term and it would include all of the original language words that are translated using the word used in the search (a one to many result, going from English to original lanuage). But, in this one-to-many list, the search term is always included and results are always limited to this base. Can you give me an example of a published concordance outside of Accordance that does not work this way? If I go to a Strong's concordance and look up an English term, it is not going to give me verses that do not contain that term. Likewise, if I go to a Young's Concordance, it is the same. If I look up 'hand' it is not going to show in the list verses that do not contain 'hand.' The Accordance Concordance seems to be making what should be a one-to-many search turn into a sort of cascading many-to-many search based upon all the English terms rather than KEY term.

 

Quote

If I'm understanding you correctly, you'd like the concordance to reflect exactly what's in your original search tab. I don't understand the value in that.

 

Because it is great to see a list breakdown by the translated words or phrases of the [KEY ????] terms with the brief quote for those having a few verses.

 

Clearly, this is not the way the Accordance Concordance works. I'll let my friends know this. As I've said, I don't think this way of working is intuitive (especially since all the other analytics tools work differently). Those without knowledge of original languages using the Concordance could easily assume that KEY terms are translated in ways they are not and are in verses where they do not actually occur.

 

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by jkdoyle

[David Lang]

Perhaps a little history would help here. The Concordance Analytic was originally designed to enable scholars to build a concordance of a text (such as the Dead Sea Scrolls) that would eventually be published in book form. For example, search for every word in the KJV (by entering the asterisk wildcard) and Concordance will create in minutes what Strong took a lifetime to create.

 

Concordances give a list of words with every occurrence of that word in the text, and that is what the Concordance feature does. It derives the list of words from the search results. If you search an English text, you'll get a list of English words. If you search a Greek text, you'll get a list of Greek words. And so on.

 

English texts with Key numbers are a kind of edge case, with English words tagged with numbers representing the underlying Greek and Hebrew words. Although your search is for a particular Key number, the result of your search is a particular set of English words, and the Concordance is based on that result—or list of English words.

 

You mentioned going to a print concordance like Strong’s and looking up an English word, where you would find only instances of that English word. But that is not analogous to what you are doing with your Key number search. The print equivalent of what you are asking for would be if Strong's included a second concordance arranged by Strong’s number. If Strong’s included that, all 19th- and 20th-century preachers would eventually have looked like body-builders! 😉

 

So the Concordance feature was designed to build a complete concordance of the words found by a search.

 

What you seem to be wanting is merely a concordance-like view of your search results. In other words, you want a text snippet rather than the whole verse. We've had a number of requests for a more condensed view of search results, but for whatever reason, it hasn’t happened yet.

 

Anyway, I know this answer isn’t very satisfying, because it basically amounts to “Accordance can’t do that.” Still, I hope it helps to make sense of a feature which admittedly seems counter-intuitive.

[jkdoyle]

David

 

Your response is very helpful as an explanation of the history for why the module works the way it does. I also work as a database designer and software developer, so I can understand a bit of what is happening in the background, and I also understand the difference between an English look-up and an original language search, using each of those texts respectively. And I also understand that the KEY look-up is, as you say, an 'edge' of sorts: a mix of looking at English texts for (in this case) a Greek word, and not vice-versa.

 

What isn't so clear to me is search results limited to the KEY term work for all the other analytics and not the concordance. They all seem to default in the other direction from the Concordance. So the ability to do this is already there (in my mind) but simply needs to be built and formatted. The Analysis tool itself is really only one step removed from the type of Concordance I think most people would want from a KEY search. It lists the different translation choices of the KEY and the count. Also, as I mentioned previously, the visual analysis tools such as Bar, Analysis Graph, Pie have the references correctly limited to the KEY term, its English equivalents, and the ability to link to the verses with that term. So it seems that this could be combined into a Concordance that only lists the results in the Search Pane grouped by translation choices in the English version being used.

 

lol. I will let it go, as it seems that there is no real option for this type of result, and the feel I get is that such a tool isn't a priority for Accordance development. I'm still not sure why this doesn't seem like an incredibly useful (and doable) function that would be particularly helpful to users who don't know the original languages. I'll add a post to a feature request and see where it goes.

 

Thanks

Jimmy

Edited March 17, 2022 by jkdoyle

[jkdoyle]

@Mark AllisonThank you also for your responses. I failed to say that in previous posts.