When does “You” mean ”Y’all” (1 Cor 3:16)

[Brian K. Mitchell]

 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Brian K. Mitchell

[docdave]

Cool! I enjoyed the video...Bill Mounce is always great. Thanks for sharing this Brian.

[yelleko]

I very much appreciate Dr. Mounce's point regarding our being aware of the NT (and OT) authors' use "you" as singular or plural. This particular verse makes that point, for sure. --- However, Dr. Mounce's homily (i.e., pep talk) is an excellent example of what is wrong with contemporary "Christian" sermons. --- The actual context is Paul's warning about different groups in the Corinthian church looking for leaders as heroes; the only one who is qualified for that role is Christ Jesus. (In order to find the sin of gossip in the verse or context, one has to do some pretty extreme mental gymnastics.) --- "Sincere eisegesis is never a substitute for correct exegesis." – Anonymous

[Dr. Nathan Parker]

FYI, Accordance Community Guidelines:

 

Discussion of biblical interpretation, points of theology, and personal beliefs is inappropriate for this board, as are personal or non-Accordance-related announcements, sale of Accordance licenses, and off-topic requests. While we encourage such interchange, we ask that you discuss these issues privately, rather than using the public sections of the Forums. Content directly attacking the character of a person or group, publicly or privately, is also prohibited.

[Brian K. Mitchell]

On 9/19/2023 at 5:41 AM, yelleko said:

However, Dr. Mounce's homily (i.e., pep talk)....

 

Greetings @yelleko Just to let you know my posting of Dr. Mounce's video was meant neither as an endorsement nor a negation of the opinions and point of views contained in the video. The posting of the video was however meant however to show someone who is using Accordance. 

 

Have a great day,

                           Brian

[josephbradford]

I’m not getting the connection of posting a video of Greek answering a question of you and y’all. Anyway since I’m southern by birth but escaped to South America learning Spanish on the street and then learned Italian in Ecuador, I believe I’m uniquely qualified to speak to this.  

 

Greek like Spanish and Italian has different words for 2nd person singular and plural. In Spanish they would be tu and vosotros. Most Latin American cultures have dropped vosotros (all of you people I’m relatively familiar with) opting for ustedes (all of you formal). It’s just easier for speaking. 
 

In English we used to separate formal and familiar ye and you respectively. However…

in the south we say y’all for 2nd person singular and “all y’all” for second person plural. 
 

so I feel silly correcting dr Mounce. But in the south, y’all is 2nd person singular. Hahahaha

[Steven S]

38 minutes ago, josephbradford said:

in the south we say y’all for 2nd person singular and “all y’all” for second person plural.

 

That's interesting. I live in North Florida and can't say with certainty that I've ever heard anyone use "y'all" as a singular pronoun. It always seems to be "you" singular, "y'all" plural, and "all y'all" emphatic plural. 

 

However, it is common around here to address a single person using "y'all" when the "others" behind the plural are implied but not present. For example, my neighbor wished me (with no one else around), "Y'all have a happy Thanksgiving," where I assume he's directing his expression of good will to both me and my family rather than to just me alone.

[Dr. Nathan Parker]

Here in Arkansas it's "you":singular "y'all":plural

 

In North Georgia it was "you":singular and "yous":plural

 

Maybe one year at ETS/SBL, we should hold a discussion figuring this all out, then write a book on it. :-)

[Steven S]

2 hours ago, Nathan Parker said:

Maybe one year at ETS/SBL, we should hold a discussion figuring this all out, then write a book on it. :-)

 

Surprisingly, the usage notes on Wiktionary for y'all and all y'all are fairly comprehensive:

 

From y'all:

Quote

• The form y'all is heard primarily in the Southern United States, and nationwide in AAVE. It is also found among Indian speakers of South African English, and parts of the Carribean. Recently, the form has begun to be used by other American English speakers, as well, and even non-American English speakers to a lesser extent, though still less commonly than you guys. For other second-personal plural pronouns, see you.
• In the past, y'all was never used as a proper singular, but it may have been used with an implied plural, e.g. "you [and your team]," "you [and your coworkers]," "you [and your family]." Due to a cultural shift in the United States by non-Southerners using the word, it is now rarely also used as a singular you, although most (increasing) non-Southern / non-AAVE use is, like Southern and AAVE use, plural.
• Notwithstanding its etymology, the all in y'all is merely a plural marker, not a quantifier. Thus, just as us may refer either to some of us or all of us in standard English, y'all may refer either to some of y'all or to all [of] y'all.
• Y'all is not considered informal speech, but is also not considered formal -- You all would, to a few, be considered more formal, but is not required in formal situations nor is it encouraged.

 

From all y'all:

Quote

• All y'all is used in the Southern United States when a speaker wishes to include everyone being addressed. Y'all may refer to an indefinite set of members of a group, but all y'all definitively includes everyone in the group.
• Like y'all (see that entry's usage notes) and most other second-person plural pronouns, all y'all (and y'all all, which mirrors e.g. they all) can be said to one individual with an implied plural "and your group".
• This form of y'all can be considered incorrect in certain parts of the American South as being redundant.

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Steven S

[josephbradford]

Technically Florida is southern but the rest of the south knows better. I live in Pensacola. Technically this is Florida but for all intents and purposes it’s basically LA. Lower Alabama. I should know, I escaped Alabama. As a college professor, we don’t allow wiki entries. Even though it’s nearly the exact error ratio as encyclopedia Britannica as far as natural sciences are concerned. So I’m going with Dunning–Kruger on this one. Hehe. 

 

[Dr. Nathan Parker]

I've been to Pensacola, and that's where my home school high school was from. Nice area! 

 

I used to trust Britannica, but after looking at the contributors section of this page, I'm not 100% sure. ;-) 

 

https://premium.britannica.com/premium-membership/?utm_source=premium&utm_medium=global-nav&utm_campaign=black-friday-2023

[Lawrence]

9 hours ago, josephbradford said:

But in the south, y’all is 2nd person singular. Hahahaha

 

Haha, so much for using "y'all" for disambiguation in 1st year Greek classes.

Edited November 24, 2023 by Lawrence

[Solly]

You'uns may enjoy this Atlas Obscura article about the solutions created by a variety of folk for the absence of a word for English second-person plural. As you saw, my local culture's answer was you'uns—much to the dismay of my teachers. Those poor souls felt it was their duty to strike the fear of the grammar ogre into the children from the hills and hollers, and remove the scourge of you'uns from our speech and writing. 

 

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/yall-youuns-yinz-youse-how-regional-dialects-are-fixing-standard-english

 

—Joseph from the Allegheny Front of Southern Pennsylvania

[mgvh]

Well.... you can check out the Y'all version: https://yallversion.com/

Pick your regional choice, and then it disambiguates all the 2nd person pronouns in a number of English versions.

[Mike Atnip]

5 hours ago, Solly said:

You'uns may enjoy this Atlas Obscura article about the solutions created by a variety of folk for the absence of a word for English second-person plural. As you saw, my local culture's answer was you'uns—much to the dismay of my teachers. Those poor souls felt it was their duty to strike the fear of the grammar ogre into the children from the hills and hollers, and remove the scourge of you'uns from our speech and writing. 

 

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/yall-youuns-yinz-youse-how-regional-dialects-are-fixing-standard-english

 

—Joseph from the Allegheny Front of Southern Pennsylvania

"You'uns" is (southeastern) Missouri, as well. At least my father used it, coming from that part of the country. Don't know if the hollers down in Arkansas heard it, though. The "Arkies" down there were looked down upon as sort of a half-subspecies, along with the "Okies" in the west. But Dad married and moved to Indiana, where any hillbilly was scowled upon by the sophisticated Hoosiers, who knew you were supposed to say, "You guys," not "you'uns". Oh, we humans!

[Dr. Nathan Parker]

6 hours ago, mgvh said:

Well.... you can check out the Y'all version: https://yallversion.com/

Pick your regional choice, and then it disambiguates all the 2nd person pronouns in a number of English versions.

 

We need this technology in Accordance. :-)

[Caleb Wachsmuth]

1 hour ago, Nathan Parker said:

 

We need this technology in Accordance. 🙂

Yes please!

[mgvh]

There is something like that possible in Accordance...

• Choose a tagged English version
• Use the TEXT command and select NA28 Greek
• Just type in the search box:    =*@[verb second plural] ]
• When you hit OK, the command line should look like this:
•                 [GNT28-T =*@[verb second plural] ]
• Be sure you are searching on Words
• Hit ENTER to run search
• You should have all 2029 second plural verbs in your English version highlighted

(The tagging behind the English versions must be a bit different than in the NA28, because I get 2059 second plural verbs searching the Greek directly.)

[mgvh]

Now, to get fancy...

• Open Highlights
• Use one of your existing highlight files or create a new one
• Create a new highlight style and label it 2ndPluralVerbs
• In the pane with the highlighted English hit, right click and choose: Highlight All Hits
• Choose the highlight style you just created

Ιδου! All the second plural verbs in your English version are now highlighted and you can toggle them on/off

Edited November 25, 2023 by mgvh

[Dr. Nathan Parker]

Nice!

[Brian K. Mitchell]

On 11/25/2023 at 10:45 AM, mgvh said:

Now, to get fancy...

Hey, thanks for this is nice! And, please get fancy a little more often.

[josephbradford]

All y'all need to realize once a joke is explained it's no longer funny.

 

Please don't make me have to explain why that was funny.

[yelleko]

Why in the world don't we simply return to using "Thee/Thou/Thine" and "Ye/Your/Yours" ??? We might sound like Quakers, but who cares ? At least we would be speaking in a less ambiguous manner.

[Dr. Nathan Parker]

I'm all for it!