To the Owner: This is a conversation from FB that I recently saw about the Accordance 14 release

[miketisdell]

After playing around with it for a morning, I simply cannot believe that Accordance 14 is so bad, at least on the PC. My fear is that Logos will simply eat its lunch and Accordance will go the way of BibleWorks. Then, like all monopolies, Logos will inevitably raise its prices.

 

Comments

 

What don’t you like about it, John?

 

I click on a Greek word. It crashes with a Range Error in the dump. I try to update the content. It either hangs, or crashes, or refuses and reports a server availability error. As a software guy, I look to see if these errors are random or deterministic. Unfortunately, they seem to be deterministic.

 

 at this point in time, I feel like their move to diversify markets hurt them. I don't think they have the money to support iOS, MacOS, Android, and Windows. Accordance 13 had some nagging bugs that never really seemed to be fully acknowledged or fixed. The release of 14 was an unforced error. It was not ready, but they released it anyway because they wanted it out. The new owner finally posted one time on their forums to let people know he supported the product, but I'm not seeing it. I'm very disappointed in it too, and I've yet to see signs it's getting better.

 

 I don’t disagree with you. The PC side is a bit behind the Mac side, I think (I only hear from others; I’m a macOS guy). But I also think the switch to dual platform was a necessary step for the survival of the company. The market is small to begin with. Limiting yourself, in a small market, to an even smaller share in that market is bad business. Of course, so are sub-par products. But

 

The driving force behind supporting multiple platforms is schools (colleges, universities, seminaries). They want a platform-

 

any evidence of Logos having 'already high' prices?

 

I hardly say that Logos prices are high. When you compare the equivalent of a print collection of the same things, it’s quite reasonable. Books and study aids are getting very expensive in comparison to what they used to be.

 

Um, this is a bit surreal to me. Surely you agree that in the universe of Bible software options, Logos is the Cadillac, both in terms of features and price? And that its dominance has caused a narrowing of those software options over time? I've been doing the Bible software thing for almost 30 years now and that is the only conclusion I can come to.

 

I would not say that Logos is the Cadillac when dealing with the original languages. Accordance has the edge in that area.

 

On Logos you own the copy enough to leave your library to someone else in your will. I haven’t looked at what the policy of the other platforms is regarding that.

 

Olive Tree will let you transfer your digital library on death as well. Amazon will not with a Kindle Library although you can share it with one other adult in your family. Ligonier will not transfer anything at all. (I just went through this when my dad passed.)

 

Thanks ***** —the whole issue of whether you own digital resources makes a significant difference to how much they are worth paying for, in my opinion.

 

My condolences for your dad. The amount of work that needs to be done when someone dies really complicates the grieving process. I hope you are doing ok.

 

Logos and Accordance prices are similar and usually much cheeper than print. They are both great products that provide amazing services and they both have bugs, my Logos phone app hasn't worked right in weeks.

 

 what kind of phone do you use? I may be able to help you as I use logos on mine daily. I beta test on my phone and run stable on

 

it's a Samsung 22 I think?

 

I don't use android, but your welcome to message me if you would like to troubleshoot. 

 

In 2014-2016, one can easily see that through their branding and marketing, Logos was going to lead the pack.

 

And they probably deserve their dominance. But dominance always has a dark side.

 

Accordance was originally just made for Apple and stayed that way for a long time. I wonder if it is still better on that operating system.

I also would hate to see Accordance go under. There is a great value in a program like it that allows for serious research in the scriptures in their original language, and I don't believe Logos serves that purpose as well as either Bibleworks or Accordance. Logos is primarily focused on selling e-books.

 

 accordance is best for Original languages work on Apple OS. Logos is best for reference work, preferable on PC.

 

I will always deep down in my heart be a Bible works person, but it just could not compete because it was run by just a very few people who eventually wanted to go on with their lives.

 

... and I think volunteering to work with www.STEPBible.org

STEPBIBLE.ORG

Gen 1 | ESV | STEP | In the beginning , God created the heavens and the earth .

 

I still use BibleWorks. I have no desire whatsoever for electronic resources, so Logos doesn't appeal to me in the least bit.

 

I tried accordance and it would crash, I didn't have that problem on logos. also, I doubt fl would raise their prices. they offer legacy packages that are really cheep, check out the legacy packages.

 

Check out Olive Tree, olivetree.com. Works on all devices, and you only pay for what you want. BHS with parsing and NA28 with parsing for only $100 each… or sign up for the email list and wait for a 50% off sale that usually happens right after Christmas.  (I get no commission from advertising their software, I just really enjoy it!)

 

 Is there a way to simultaneously search for a lemma in both the GNT and LXX in Olive Tree?

 

 Sadly, I don't think there is a way to search for a word or form across both simultaneously. But that's not something I've gone searching for.

 

BibleWorks was my daily companion in translating the NT for the Legacy Standard Bible. Almost daily in consulting on the OT.

 

 I am still using Bibleworks 10 for original language works. I thought about downloading Logos 9 free in the last two days, but decide not to. Bibleworks is good enough. Accordance is made for Mac so I never bother with it (I own a PC).

 

The rollout of v14 was unquestionably poor. By now (a matter of weeks) most of the glaring issues have been addressed and more besides. I’d like to think that this is a lesson for management in listening to their programmers and beta testers when they say a product is not ready. I think we can all see this was rushed out for SBL/ETS.

 

I think it’s also clear that there are some great features in v14 that help Accordance do what it does best, even better. But there is still some catch-up to do, for sure. I work exclusively on Mac (for Accordance) but I understand the PC side has more lingering issues.

 

That’s unfortunate. For a long time Olive Tree has been the premier Bible study platform for mobile devices, whilst Accordance was known to be especially powerful tool for desktop use (along with Logos, BibleWorks, eSword). It does appear that Logos is set to become even more dominant on the desktop going forward.

 

I am also concerned Logos could run Accordance out of the market because its target buyer is significantly different than Accordance. Biblical scholarship needs Accordance and it is unlikely Logos would try to duplicate its capabilities. Many of us would be back almost to the beginning days of trying to do Biblical research on a computer.

 

If Logos raises it's prices they better offer a mortgage option, or an exchange for child program.

 

 I just upgraded logos and it was~$110.

 

I have lived with Logos since Libronix and have formulated the Linebarger Law of Logos Upgrades, which states that with each new Logos release it will cost you at least $500 to retain the same library level as you had before. I've been Platinum for a few releases now, and sho 'nuff, I have to lay out ~$500 just to stay Platinum. Yes, I get a few more resources. But that's the Logos Gravy Train, the business model that they live under.

 

 I've used legacy resources since buying a library in ~2005 in the libronix days.Had a former logo/faithlife employee tell me they never recpde the resources, don't upgrade your library. I thought that was common knowledge. I agree 100% upgrading your library is the logos gravy train.

 

The lesson here is never ever upgrade anything straight away. Always wait a few weeks.

 

too true

 

Logos 10 isn’t much better, particularly on mobile.

Edited December 18, 2022 by miketisdell

[miketisdell]

Quote

Also note that the Facebook group (dedicated to original languages) where this post was found has 15,000 members 

 

[Erhard]

It might be good to tag @Troy Wormell so that he will see this concern

[A. Smith]

@miketisdell I actually took some edited screenshots and sent this discussion to whomever manages the accordance fb page as well. I’ve also offered, as a moderator in the group, to do some PR. But I’d need some contact with the A-team to really do that well.
 

Ultimately, this just further confirms the botched rollout of v14 has caused a loss of confidence for some users. Personally, I’m happy with the way things are now being addressed. But damage has been done. 

[miketisdell]

1 hour ago, A. Smith said:

@miketisdell I actually took some edited screenshots and sent this discussion to whomever manages the accordance fb page as well. I’ve also offered, as a moderator in the group, to do some PR. But I’d need some contact with the A-team to really do that well.
 

Ultimately, this just further confirms the botched rollout of v14 has caused a loss of confidence for some users. Personally, I’m happy with the way things are now being addressed. But damage has been done. 

 

I agree that damage has been done, but I am not sure that more damage is not still being done. Accordance 14 is still being promoted as a production release and new installs are still causing grief for those who install it, and communication from Accordance has still been poor. 

I think Accordance could do a lot to turn this around with just a little bit better communication; acknowledgement of the mistakes made and corrective action i.e. letting people know that this is not yet stable and to use Accordance 13 until it is stable. It is a horrible user experience to find out that the product you just installed was not yet ready for production and will, at a minimum, require a reinstallation of the prior version to get back to a stable version. If this is a new Accordance user trying out the software for the first time, then this is enough to scare them away for good. 

 

 

[mhanel]

22 minutes ago, miketisdell said:

 

I think Accordance could do a lot to turn this around with just a little bit better communication;

 

As far as I have inferred, Silas is their main programmer. I've also seen posts from Sean N. and Mike G. There's David Lang and Jordan S. Maybe another name or two that I remember seeing Accordance tags with. So it's not that Accordance has no presence on the Forums. But if you asked me what those people did at Accordance aside from Silas, I really have no idea. I remember the old website did list a little bit about (some) of their employees. It made you feel like you knew the people and they were somewhat involved on the Forums. It's probably telling that I can name more former employees who were active here than I could recall the current ones.

 

I've never owned a large business, but I've been a pastor in a church and I know communication is everything and it's hard to over-communicate. Obviously that takes resources (you have to pay someone or someones to be that communicator), but it pays for itself in the end. That person or people also allow the management/ownership to get a better feel for what's going on among users too. Without those connections, you get something more like what's happening right now. This may just be an odd hiccup in the overall big picture, but there have been so many unanswered questions that it feels like there's no one there.

[miketisdell]

1 hour ago, mhanel said:

 

As far as I have inferred, Silas is their main programmer. I've also seen posts from Sean N. and Mike G. There's David Lang and Jordan S. Maybe another name or two that I remember seeing Accordance tags with. So it's not that Accordance has no presence on the Forums. But if you asked me what those people did at Accordance aside from Silas, I really have no idea. I remember the old website did list a little bit about (some) of their employees. It made you feel like you knew the people and they were somewhat involved on the Forums. It's probably telling that I can name more former employees who were active here than I could recall the current ones.

 

I've never owned a large business, but I've been a pastor in a church and I know communication is everything and it's hard to over-communicate. Obviously that takes resources (you have to pay someone or someones to be that communicator), but it pays for itself in the end. That person or people also allow the management/ownership to get a better feel for what's going on among users too. Without those connections, you get something more like what's happening right now. This may just be an odd hiccup in the overall big picture, but there have been so many unanswered questions that it feels like there's no one there.

At this point, I don't think that the issues are related to Silas (or the other Accordance staff that interacts here). The communication issues, and the choice to release beta software into production are executive level decisions. In software development bugs are to be expected but in most organizations these are worked out before a production release is made (this is a standard part of the QA process); what is worse in this case is that most of these bugs were known issues prior to its release as production i.e. these were not bugs that caught anyone by surprise (except for the users who saw first saw Accordance 14 as a production release). 

[Frank Jones]

I reinstalled version 13 a week ago, but it saddens me to see this mess. Potential pornography access on a Pastor's computer is a problem.

Reading everything, I think that Accordance should withdraw version 14, give notification, apology, and instructions by email how to reinstall version 13. Then they can work on the product without public engagement. The longer version 14 is out in the public the worst for the company. FWIW.

[Gary Pauley]

In all of this I wish the best to Accordance. I really don't want to see this product fail in any way and pray grace for the team in their work. There are clearly process/rollout lessons to be learned--I am hoping Accordance comes out better in the learning. 

 

Admittedly I am one of the lucky ones, installation and use of A14 has been practically problem free. I hope others the same experience soon. Pastors who use Accordance need it online pretty much constantly. To lose a regular tool is quite an upset to prep and presentation...which comes every 7 days.