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Should אלהים (ʾĔLŌHÎM) with plural predication be translated “gods”?


HonorGodAlways

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Hello,

 

I contacted sales at Accordance and they suggested I post my question here. Any time and/or assistance with the question below that can be provided would be greatly appreciated.

 

I'm currently looking to purchase bible software and am particularly interested in whether the software from Accordance would enable me to efficiently perform the same types of searches as described by Dr. Michael Heiser in his paper located at https://sitchiniswrong.com/Elohim/Heiser-should-elohim-with-plural-predication-translated-gods.pdf (also attached) more efficiently and across more source texts and languages?


e.g. (excerpt from the paper)

"Recent syntactic database development allows the scholar/translator to construct a query for אלהים and האלהים as the subject of a clause whose predicator is a third person plural finite verb."

 

Thanks in advance,
Scott

Heiser-should-elohim-with-plural-predication-translated-gods.pdf

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There is certainly ways to do searches like it.

There might be better ways to do it, but this is what I came up with in a few minutes. I think this also highlights instances that would not be needed for your search, with a plural predicate verb in a different part of the verse, but at least it would be a starting point.

 

Screenshot_construct.thumb.png.29afede245aa52fc79a84b6cbfcd6dda.png

Edited by Schulschlus
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Thank you very much, Schulschlus!

If I'm understanding correctly you've built a Link Construct and then issued the search (somewhat similar to what is described at http://accordancefiles2.com/helpfiles/OSX13/content/topics/06_braa/ex_heb_const_srch.htm.  Did I understand your screenshot correctly?

And if I'm understanding the help section correctly I should be able to create similar searches for Syriac Peshitta and so on.

Would you happen to have a recommendation on the Collection(s) required to accomplish this?  I'm not yet familiar enough to connect what I'm reading about in documentation to what is described in their store?  It seems that I would need to purchase the Hebrew Master Collection as it contains https://accordancebible.com/product/biblia-hebraica-with-westminster-hebrew-morph-4/

Is there a slightly lower cost approach to accomplishing this work that you'd suggest I mention to the Sales team?

Thanks again!

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The Hebrew starter edition already adds a different Hebrew text "(+ Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia with ETCBC Morphology (Contains BHS Text Only, Not the Apparatus))", https://accordancebible.com/product/starter-collection-13-hebrew-language-specialty/ From there you can add certain other texts that you would want. No need to  purchase the Master collection just to have that certain version. If you really need it, just add it for $70 to your starter edition.

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On 9/28/2022 at 7:00 AM, HonorGodAlways said:

"Recent syntactic database development allows the scholar/translator to construct a query for אלהים and האלהים as the subject of a clause whose predicator is a third person plural finite verb."

 

What is really amazing is that the one true Elohim of Israel is also described with plural verbs and adjectives!

 

Gen 1:26 - Elohim refers to himself as being plural

Gen 11:6-9 - YHWH refers to himself as being plural

Gen 20:13 - Abraham uses plural verb referring to the true Elohim

Gen 35:7 - Jacob uses plural verb referring to the true Elohim

Josh 24:19 Joshua uses plural adjective referring to the true Elohim

 

Shalom

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2 hours ago, Schulschlus said:

The Hebrew starter edition already adds a different Hebrew text "(+ Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia with ETCBC Morphology (Contains BHS Text Only, Not the Apparatus))", https://accordancebible.com/product/starter-collection-13-hebrew-language-specialty/ From there you can add certain other texts that you would want. No need to  purchase the Master collection just to have that certain version. If you really need it, just add it for $70 to your starter edition.


Thank you again, Schulschlus!

 

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7 minutes ago, Anonymous said:

 

What is really amazing is that the one true Elohim of Israel is also described with plural verbs and adjectives!

 

Gen 1:26 - Elohim refers to himself as being plural

Gen 11:6-9 - YHWH refers to himself as being plural

Gen 20:13 - Abraham uses plural verb referring to the true Elohim

Gen 35:7 - Jacob uses plural verb referring to the true Elohim

Josh 24:19 Joshua uses plural adjective referring to the true Elohim

 

Shalom


Couldn't agree more how amazing the only true and living elohim, Yahweh really is!

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Hi @Schulschlus,

I was just comparing your screenshot to how I normally do things, and I am hoping you can clarify a few points:

 

1) I noticed you are using "letters" as opposed to "lex". Is there a reason why, or would both work?

 

2) When I do constructs I tend to do the "within" command as opposed to subject and predicate. The logic I have is that the "within" command is less likely to lose hits. It may have too many, which you need to sort out, but you won't miss anything. By contrast, the subject predicate is more specific, but might lose a hit not marked as such and reminds me more of a key search. Does that logic make sense, or do you see the subject / predicate to be reliable enough that I should use it instead?

 

Thanks for any clarification you can provide, and I can attach a pic of a typical construct search I would do.

 

Kristin

 

Bildschirmfoto 2022-09-29 um 07.28.26.png

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Hi @Kristin, I am not the most experienced with these searches, just tried to help out, as I  said I only spent a couple of minutes.

I used subject predicate, because it was specifically worded that way in the question. I do not know how reliable the tagging is for the text, I just assumed it would be good. Lex is probably the correct way to go about it, I am not sure if it makes a difference, and I tried the "within" command as well, but figured it would include a lot of hits where God is talked about (not even necessarily as the subject in your search), and the people of Israel are doing something (to get the plural verb), and that is not what seems to be of interest. I hope that makes sense. Maybe it misses a few instances in my search, but at least narrows them down quite a bit to start a good study on the topic.

 

Blessings!

Schulschlus

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Hi @Schulschlus,

Thank you for the clarification, and that makes sense. Concerning the "within" capturing extra unwanted hits, that is for sure true. I did this last year and it took me awhile to weed out what I really needed vs other verbs and subjects, but at the end I felt pretty confident that I wasn't missing anything.

 

I am glad to hear that you think the lex should work fine, as that is sort of my go-to for stuff like this.

 

Take care,

Kristin

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Could we get some clarification on Hebrew and Greek Syntax modules. 

 

The labeling on the bibles is confusing. When you purchase Greek Hebrew Discover package you do not get HMT-W4 so you must purchase both HMT-W4 and Hebrew Syntax  Holmestd to search Hebrew syntax. Right?

 

When you purchase Greek Hebrew Discover package the Hebrew bible in that package BHS with ETCBC Morphology does NOT include syntax and you will not be able to do syntax searching. Right? 

 

When you purchase Greek Hebrew Discover package the Tagged Greek NT  in that package does NOT include syntax and you will not be able to do syntax searching. Right?

 

The naming of modules is massively confusing.

 

Short of spending several thousand dollars Greek and Hebrew syntax involves adding "add on modules " both a TEXT and a SYNTAX module. RIGHT?

 

I am not shopping for anything. Trying to be of assistance to someone who is shopping.

 

POSTSCRIPT:

While attempting to sort out the SYNTAX search add on modules question I have been wondering how we ever managed to get along without SYNTAX diagramming and searching. Having dabbled in Chomsky Standard Theory for over decade before Accordance 1.0 was released, it never occurred to me to ask for a syntax diagram.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by c. stirling bartholomew
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Hi @c. stirling bartholomew,

I am not personally familiar with the Discover package, or any package for that matter, but I can mention that Accordance sales is extremely helpful when it comes to this stuff. On a few occasions I have emailed sales@accordancebible.com and they have always clarified what products come with what, compared to other products, and have even volunteered what would be the best option financially.

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Quote

Accordance sales is extremely helpful when it comes to this stuff.

 

Thank you. We already have sales involved. However, it isn't helpful for me because I am not talking to sales since I am not shopping. The module name confusion is something that needs addressing. We have had a tagged GNT since version 1.0 so it is not a useful title for a module.

 

BHS with ETCBC Morphology is a world class enigma. If the name doesn't include syntax then SYNTAX is not included. RIGHT? Wrong! HMT-W4 does not include SYNTAX but it is required for Holmstedt syntax. If you have BHS with ETCBC Morphology already how many modules do you need to purchase for the non-Holmstedt syntax and what is this syntax called? None of the above is anything close to obvious. Why should we have to tie up resources asking this question over and over again? I have seen the question in the archives and it was old enough to be no longer relevant.

 

greetings, CSB

Edited by c. stirling bartholomew
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Name disambiguation: Is  MT-ETCBC a different item from BHS with ETCBC Morphology ? It appears to be the same the same thing.

 

Quote

Note: This BHS Hebrew text (MT-ETCBC) pairs with the ETCBC Syntax product (sold separately). Also available is a separate BHS Hebrew Text with Apparatus (MT-ETCBC-A with Apparatus). That text includes the sigla to correspond with the apparatus markings.

 

The architecture of the ACCORD product site reminds me of The Winchester House.

 

Edited by c. stirling bartholomew
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On 9/27/2022 at 7:14 PM, HonorGodAlways said:

Thank you very much, Schulschlus!

If I'm understanding correctly you've built a Link Construct and then issued the search (somewhat similar to what is described at http://accordancefiles2.com/helpfiles/OSX13/content/topics/06_braa/ex_heb_const_srch.htm.  Did I understand your screenshot correctly?

And if I'm understanding the help section correctly I should be able to create similar searches for Syriac Peshitta and so on.

 

In regard to the Syriac Peshitta there doesn't appear to be a SYNTAX add on module for the Syriac Peshitta.  You could probably still use: AGREE person and number; WITHIN constraints (arguments) in the construct window. I am speculating because I don't have Syriac Peshitta.

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On 9/30/2022 at 8:44 PM, c. stirling bartholomew said:

 

Thank you. We already have sales involved. However, it isn't helpful for me because I am not talking to sales since I am not shopping. The module name confusion is something that needs addressing. We have had a tagged GNT since version 1.0 so it is not a useful title for a module.

 

BHS with ETCBC Morphology is a world class enigma. If the name doesn't include syntax then SYNTAX is not included. RIGHT? Wrong! HMT-W4 does not include SYNTAX but it is required for Holmstedt syntax. If you have BHS with ETCBC Morphology already how many modules do you need to purchase for the non-Holmstedt syntax and what is this syntax called? None of the above is anything close to obvious. Why should we have to tie up resources asking this question over and over again? I have seen the question in the archives and it was old enough to be no longer relevant.

 

greetings, CSB

 

With the caveat that I don't own any Hebrew syntax modules, this is my understanding. There are three syntax modules available: Holmstedt, ETCBC, and Anderson-Forbes. Each syntax module requires a specific corresponding Text. "BHS with ETCBC Morphology" (short name or code: MT-ETCBC) is the one Text that will work with the ETCBC syntax module (short name: MT-ETCBC.syntax). The two are paired in this bundle: https://accordancebible.com/product/hebrew-masoretic-text-with-etcbc-morphology-wivu-with-syntax/ This bundle says it's included in the Hebrew Master collection, but that's fairly expensive. I would imagine the best option is to buy the Greek and Hebrew Discoverer bundle, and then buy the ETCBC morphology and syntax bundle. The latter will be discounted due to already having MT-ETCBC, and thus probably cheaper than buying the ETCBC syntax module on its own.

 

The Text corresponding to a syntax module cannot have sigla, so there are variant Texts that do include sigla, for times when the critical apparatus is of greater interest than the syntax. MT-ETCBC-A is the variant of MT-ETCBC with the sigla for the BHS apparatus.

Edited by jlm
Correct typo
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