"Hebrew Cantillations"

[TheAbbott]

One of my Hebrew professors is using Logos. Logos has a cool feature called hebrew cantillations where it graphically orders the passage by the accent markers. I have attached a picture for reference. Does Accordance offer this feature? I already have accordance, and I was just wondering if it was something this software could do.

[Accordance Enthusiast]

I would also appreciate this feature for Accordance!

 

Shalom!

[TheAbbott]

So we know for sure this feature does not exist? rip.

[Kristin]

Hi @TheAbbott and @Anonymous,

I never owned Logos, so I might be mistaken, but what you both are talking about sounds a lot like the syntax that Accordance has for both Greek and Hebrew. Maybe this would be helpful:

 

https://accordancebible.com/product/grammatical-syntax-add-on-to-hmt-w4/

 

I am not sure what this is, so here is this also:

 

https://accordancebible.com/product/grammatical-syntax-add-on-to-hebrew-inscriptions/

 

I hope this helps,

Kristin

[A.D. Riddle]

The Hebrew Cantillations tool in Logos is not a Syntax database. Here is a sample of two verses.

 

A.D.

[Robert Holmstedt]

What is the point (honest question, not snarky)? Once one knows the te'amim/accents, it's easy to see the groupings while reading. And since they don't map onto syntax in a one-to-one way, I'm not seeing the value of this type of display.

 

 

[Michel Gilbert]

I was going to say something similar.

[Accordance Enthusiast]

8 hours ago, Robert Holmstedt said:

What is the point (honest question, not snarky)? Once one knows the te'amim/accents, it's easy to see the groupings while reading. And since they don't map onto syntax in a one-to-one way, I'm not seeing the value of this type of display.

 

Hi Prof. Robert Holmstedt,

 

It's not as important as a syntax database, I fully agree.

 

But just to show beginners in a visual way how the accents divide the verses into logical (or sometimes musical) parts.

 

I think such a database will also enable better in-depth searching and research for the Masoretic use of accents.

 

It will also enable easier comparison of the Masoretic division compared to syntactical analysis.  

 

Shalom.

[Robert Holmstedt]

Ok, fair enough.

I can accept that has some learning value (though I would hesitate to point students to it without also contextualizing the te'amim by having them first read Yeivin and then some recent analysis -- I still assign Dresher's 1994 article). And I am a highly visual learner, so I can appreciate that aspect as well, but I suppose my concern has an embedded cost-benefit question since I suspect that such a module would be more than a little work.

 

[Michel Gilbert]

I was also thinking that many of us would like Accordance to spend some of its limited resources on Introduction to the Tiberian Masorah, e.g., see

https://forums.accordancebible.com/topic/17263-introduction-to-the-tiberian-masorah/#comment-83502

 

I remember when I was learning to read difficult Hebrew, e.g., Isaiah, Job, and some of the Psalms, that I would sometimes cheat and look at the accents to see which words went with which words, at least according to the Masoretes. But even Wisconsin’s Hebrew Bible PhD Reading List - Classical and Ancient Near Eastern Studies only required “demonstration of an ability to divide verses down to the third dichotomy on the basis of Massoretic accents.” Anything beyond that is a very specialized area of study, to the point that much of it isn’t even clearly understood.

[JonathanHuber]

2 hours ago, Michel Gilbert said:

I would sometimes cheat and look at the accents to see which words went with which words, at least according to the Masoretes. 

Why is that considered cheating? 🤔

[Michel Gilbert]

7 hours ago, JonathanHuber said:

Why is that considered cheating

 

Hi Jonathan,

 

For me it was cheating because I used it as an expedient, a way to get a result quickly that went against my usual study habits. I was reading difficult Hebrew after my MA in OT and PhD in Jewish Studies, so I really had no excuse for not doing the work myself in the primary source. I consider the te'amim a secondary source for reading biblical Hebrew. I’m also not tempted by them anymore--I deleted them for my own reading and study.

 

Regards,

 

Michel

[Accordance Enthusiast]

On 9/2/2022 at 10:18 PM, Robert Holmstedt said:

I would hesitate to point students to it without also contextualizing the te'amim by having them first read Yeivin and then some recent analysis

 

Sure, I agree. I also read Yeivin's introduction to the Massorah - very insightful. 

 

I understand that it would be a costly and time-consuming job, and it would present many challenges. 

 

I also know that e.g. in the poetic books, even nouns in the construct state are marked with disjunctive accents like Revia Mugrash, in which case the division by accents could be very confusing.

 

Shalom.

[Accordance Enthusiast]

On 9/3/2022 at 9:19 AM, Michel Gilbert said:

I deleted them for my own reading and study

 

Not necessarily a bad idea, but those accents in the non-poetic books are generally very good and very accurate. They help you not to make silly mistakes while reading. If you ignore the accents you'll have to manually pick up the mistakes you made in the first try. Then go back a second time with the whole context in mind, and usually you'll get back to the same conclusion the Masaorets did. (Though not always.)

 

They did a very good job with the Accents, and they are far more accurate than what a first try by even scholars would give. They have done the work of many years of scholarly investigation to get those accents there. (Unless they really learned that whole tradition by memory! In which case those who created and passed should be credited).

 

I just think we should have strong contextual evidence before we reject or contradict the Masoretic Accents.

 

Shalom.   

 

[Robert Holmstedt]

17 hours ago, Anonymous said:

I also know that e.g. in the poetic books, even nouns in the construct state are marked with disjunctive accents like Revia Mugrash, in which case the division by accents could be very confusing.

 

Shalom.

You are already in a rare group of people who knows this important fact -- that bound words can carry disjunctive accents. I had to point this out to a senior scholar a few years ago and he was quite surprised. 

[A.D. Riddle]

Here is another cantillation database, by Alan Johnson. He works at Dallas International University. I think all the tree work is finished for the entire Tanakh, but he is still breaking the English phrasing to "match" the Hebrew accents/cantillations. If you click on the English, you can get transliterated Hebrew, and if you click on a word in the transliterated Hebrew you get a breakdown of that term's occurrence.

https://freely-given.org/BibleOriginals/Hebrew/AccentsPhrasing/Files/Genesis1.html

https://freely-given.org/BibleOriginals/Hebrew/AccentsPhrasing/Files/W/]e-lo-him.html#Gen1:3

 

A.D.