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Searching Tag >> qal passive participle שׂרף yields no results, despite 1 Sam 30:3


Brett Dickson

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I've attempted the following search: 

 

=שׂרף־1@ [VERB qal passiveParticiple]  (of course, reversed in accordance, see image)

 

I've worked through all the forms of שׂרף on my own by searching for the root. Now I am trying to identify all of the qal pass. ptc. quickly with Accordance, but my search was unsuccessful (cf. 1 Sam 30:3).

 

Any ideas? 

 

 

Screen Shot 2022-04-22 at 11.00.26 AM.png

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Yes, this is very strange behavior. As far as I can see, there's no reason why this form shouldn't be picked up. It would be good for someone from Accordance to chime in here, as I get the same result in BHS, BHS (ETCBC) and HMT-W4. 

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I am not sure if your versions are the same as mine, but my BHS-T is associated with MORPH 4.14 which seems to have tagged these as [passiveQal participle] rather than [qal passiveParticiple], which is what is in my HMT-W4, associated with MORPH 4.20.

 

So it looks like the underlying tagging database changed how they treated these. Having them all passiveQal seems more consistent to me, but I guess students learn passiveParticiple so maybe it screws people up.

 

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17 hours ago, Peter Bekins said:

I am not sure if your versions are the same as mine, but my BHS-T is associated with MORPH 4.14 which seems to have tagged these as [passiveQal participle] rather than [qal passiveParticiple], which is what is in my HMT-W4, associated with MORPH 4.20.

 

So it looks like the underlying tagging database changed how they treated these. Having them all passiveQal seems more consistent to me, but I guess students learn passiveParticiple so maybe it screws people up.

 

 

Yes, I see that there is inconsistency in the way the tagging is presented. Could that be messing up the underlying data bases?

 

I also notice that when I do the search in the Anderson-Forbes Hebrew Bible, the results are more satisfying. Searching on =שׂרף gives me 125 hits, including 2Sa 30,3. A search for =שׂרף@ [VERB verbalParticiple] also catches it, as does =שׂרף@ [VERB passQal verbalParticiple].

 

 

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Using HMT-T 2001[1] with the Heb Construct equivalent I find: 

 

Num. 17:4‏ וַיִּקַּח אֶלְעָזָר הַכֹּהֵן אֵת מַחְתּוֹת הַנְּחֹשֶׁת אֲשֶׁר הִקְרִיבוּ הַשְּׂרֻפִים וַיְרַקְּעוּם צִפּוּי לַמִּזְבֵּחַ

 

‎1Sam. 30:3‏ וַיָּבֹא דָוִד וַאֲנָשָׁיו אֶל־הָעִיר וְהִנֵּה שְׂרוּפָה בָּאֵשׁ וּנְשֵׁיהֶם וּבְנֵיהֶם וּבְנֹתֵיהֶם נִשְׁבּוּ

 

‎Is. 1:7‏ אַרְצְכֶם שְׁמָמָה עָרֵיכֶם שְׂרֻפוֹת אֵשׁ אַדְמַתְכֶם לְנֶגְדְּכֶם זָרִים אֹכְלִים אֹתָהּ וּשְׁמָמָה כְּמַהְפֵּכַת זָרִים

 

‎Psa. 80:17שְׂרֻפָה בָאֵשׁ כְּסוּחָה מִגַּעֲרַת פָּנֶיךָ יֹאבֵדוּ

 

‎Neh. 3:34‏ וַיֹּאמֶר לִפְנֵי אֶחָיו וְחֵיל שֹׁמְרוֹן וַיֹּאמֶר מָה הַיְּהוּדִים הָאֲמֵלָלִים עֹשִׂים הֲיַעַזְבוּ לָהֶם הֲיִזְבָּחוּ הַיְכַלּוּ בַיּוֹם הַיְחַיּוּ אֶת־הָאֲבָנִים מֵעֲרֵמוֹת הֶעָפָר וְהֵמָּה שְׂרוּפוֹת 

 

Get the same results with HMT 1.1 1994.  

 

[1]

Quote

Hebrew Masoretic Text Groves-Wheeler Westminster Hebrew Morphology (Release 3.5) ©1991, 1994,1999, 2001 Westminster Theological Seminary, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania  USA. All rights reserved. Text used by permission of the United Bible Society, based on the Michigan-Claremont-Westminster machine-readable text.  All rights reserved. Version 3.1   

 

Edited by c. stirling bartholomew
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1 hour ago, c. stirling bartholomew said:

Using HMT-T 2001[1] with the Heb Construct equivalent I find: 

 

Num. 17:4‏ וַיִּקַּח אֶלְעָזָר הַכֹּהֵן אֵת מַחְתּוֹת הַנְּחֹשֶׁת אֲשֶׁר הִקְרִיבוּ הַשְּׂרֻפִים וַיְרַקְּעוּם צִפּוּי לַמִּזְבֵּחַ

 

‎1Sam. 30:3‏ וַיָּבֹא דָוִד וַאֲנָשָׁיו אֶל־הָעִיר וְהִנֵּה שְׂרוּפָה בָּאֵשׁ וּנְשֵׁיהֶם וּבְנֵיהֶם וּבְנֹתֵיהֶם נִשְׁבּוּ

 

‎Is. 1:7‏ אַרְצְכֶם שְׁמָמָה עָרֵיכֶם שְׂרֻפוֹת אֵשׁ אַדְמַתְכֶם לְנֶגְדְּכֶם זָרִים אֹכְלִים אֹתָהּ וּשְׁמָמָה כְּמַהְפֵּכַת זָרִים

 

‎Psa. 80:17שְׂרֻפָה בָאֵשׁ כְּסוּחָה מִגַּעֲרַת פָּנֶיךָ יֹאבֵדוּ

 

‎Neh. 3:34‏ וַיֹּאמֶר לִפְנֵי אֶחָיו וְחֵיל שֹׁמְרוֹן וַיֹּאמֶר מָה הַיְּהוּדִים הָאֲמֵלָלִים עֹשִׂים הֲיַעַזְבוּ לָהֶם הֲיִזְבָּחוּ הַיְכַלּוּ בַיּוֹם הַיְחַיּוּ אֶת־הָאֲבָנִים מֵעֲרֵמוֹת הֶעָפָר וְהֵמָּה שְׂרוּפוֹת 

 

Get the same results with HMT 1.1 1994.  

 

[1]

 

 

I can confirm these results with HMT, as well as with BHS (ETCBC) using the Hebrew construct function. However, even with the Hebrew construct search function, BHS doesn't give results. So there is definitely a problem. Leaving to one side the fact that this fails with BHS, it's true that for complex searches, the construct search function is preferable. However, for such a simple search, there should really be no difference. 

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To be clear, I don't know that there is a "problem". I think the Groves people may have just changed their opinion on how to categorize these. On the one hand, if you allow a Qal passive binyan, then there is no reason to have a separate form for Qal passive participles. On the other hand, if Qal passive is no longer productive, then it is probably best to treat passive participles specially. Unfortunately, the Groves website doesn't seem to be updated regularly and I am not sure where to look for some sort of change log to explain these sorts of thing. 

 

If passiveParticiple is picked up in back in version 3.5 then perhaps they switched to passiveQal sometime before 4.14 then back to passiveParticiple by 4.20 because they confused everyone? BHS-T would then seem to be stuck with that intermediate stage.

 

The ETCBC does not rely on the Groves morphology so it is independent of this discussion. I believe the same is true for Andersen-Forbes. (I don't own either module to check)

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