key number hits vs Hebrew word hits

[Kristin]

I am having some confusion concerning finding the correct count of a enosh and would appreciate any help anyone is able to provide.

 

While I know I am able to get more hits of a word looking at the Hebrew word (since not all words are tagged), I am getting a DRASTICALLY higher number with the key number than with typing the word, even though the key number is that of enosh (which is not the same number as ish...).

 

Further, when I look at verses among the larger hit count I often can't find the word in the text, so I am just confused.

 

Attached a picture expressing my confusion.

 

Thank you for any help anyone is able to provide.

Sincerely,

Kristin

 

[Joel Brown]

I don't recall off-hand the source of each of the key data we have for each text.  Much of it comes direct from the publishers, some of it is our work as we adapt from different databases.  Enosh here is an odd example - for some reason many of the "ish" words were instead linked to the lexical form enosh, as you see.  Far more than the Hebrew text.  Searching across various texts, KJVS and ESVS both seem to have this error.  HCSBS, CSB17S, NAS95S, NIV11-GK, and JPSS get it right.  If you ever get odd example its good to check against other tagged texts you have to get some cross information.

 

By the way, it's not just us that have the odd choice!  The online STEP bible also has the same error - they claim it only occurs ~40 times, but then show all 500+ results.

[Kristin]

2 hours ago, Joel Brown said:

...HCSBS, CSB17S, NAS95S, NIV11-GK, and JPSS get it right. ...

 

Hi Joel,

Thank you very much for the explanation! While the problem is primarily with (אִ֣ישׁ), the word (מִקְנֶ֜ה) also gets tagged in Gen 46:34, so I thought it was me and I was missing something. That is a good idea to check other tagged texts. I will keep that in mind.

 

That is also really interesting that STEP has this issue also. I had first thought the problem was that (אֱנ֔וֹשׁ) is so close to (אִ֣ישׁ), but seeing it linked with (מִקְנֶ֜ה) shows the issue must be more complex than that. 

 

With this specific word, if I just search the word (אֱנ֔וֹשׁ) itself and forget the key that will catch all the results. Correct? So in my screenshot the word itself has 42 hits, so there are in fact only 42 hits. JPS links 93 hits to [KEY H0582] and CSB links 37 hits. So if I am understanding correctly, JPS is also linking a few extra words and CBS is missing a few, and I can trust the number 42. Is this correct?

 

Thank you again and take care,

Kristin

[Joel Brown]

I would definitely trust a direct search of the Hebrew text over any searching in KEY.  Of course, the Hebrew texts even have their own human interpretation, and thus variation, such as HMT-W4 that sticks more closely to Leningrad, vs. BHS-T that does a minor bit of adjustment for obvious errors.  But in general, I'd say your statistics are always going to be more reliable directly searching a text rather than depending on the key numbers and their often difficult matching to the original text.

 

This is a point where I'd plug NIV-GKE and MOUNCE-NT.  Both of these texts tried to create a 1:1 translation, where every Hebrew word is rendered, and every english word is tagged.  NIV-GK/GKE does get the count exactly right (42) - with one minor point, it actually gets 43 due to the phrase "very few" in Is 24:6 being aligned with אֱנ֖וֹשׁ מִזְעָֽר, but that means two words are marked as 'hits'.  A quick analysis of the list does show 8 hits of just אֱנוֹשׁ.

 

One final tip is to use the [CONTENTS] command - it basically can limit a search results to the verses in another search result.  So, you could do something like:

[KEY H0582] <AND> <NOT> [CONTENTS Hebrew Bible (Biblia Hebraica) Tagged] 

If your HMT-W4 tab still had the search for אֱנוֹשׁ, this would show in a Key Number text all of the verses where H0582 was present and not אֱנוֹשׁ, so you can get an idea for the nature of the discrepancy.

[Kristin]

4 hours ago, Joel Brown said:

... NIV-GK/GKE does get the count exactly right (42) - with one minor point, it actually gets 43 due to the phrase "very few" in Is 24:6 being aligned with אֱנ֖וֹשׁ מִזְעָֽר, but that means two words are marked as 'hits'.  A quick analysis of the list does show 8 hits of just אֱנוֹשׁ....

 

 

Hi Joel,

Ok, great, that is a relief to know that just searching the word will give the correct results, and I will keep that in mind about Mounce. 

 

If you do not mind, I have a few questions about what you said about the NIV. I own the NIV, and it has footnotes, but it does not link to the Greek and Hebrew. 

 

1) I see now that you have two different links about the NIV. The first, which I think I must own is https://www.accordancebible.com/product/niv-new-international-version-2011-with-footnotes/ but it does not say “You own this product” anywhere on the page. So I am not entirely sure if this is the same, but I think it is. (Also, on a technical side note, there are three links on this page. One is dead and the other two link to something about Acc for mobile).

 

2) The other NIV called GKE https://www.accordancebible.com/product/niv-new-international-version-2011-with-g-k-numbers-and-phrase-tagging/ seems to be a totally separate Bible and not an upgrade from the non-tagged NIV. Is this correct?

 

3) I am confused how the GKE NIV has an opinion about Isaiah. GKE stands for “Greek English”, right? So that would just be the NT, or am I mistaken?

 

Thank you for any clarification you are able to provide.

Sincerely,

Kristin

 

[Fabian]

 

Hello Kristin

 

This one https://www.accordancebible.com/product/niv-new-international-version-2011-with-g-k-numbers-and-phrase-tagging/ Check also the video on https://www.accordancebible.com/NIV11-GKE/

 

Ask the sales for a discount. Because the links on the https://www.accordancebible.com/product/niv-new-international-version-2011-with-footnotes/ are useless until Accordance fix them. 

 

Fabian

 

 

[Joel Brown]

The links on the page look correct to me now, perhaps someone took care of them already?

 

We have three editions of the NIV11 - Without GK numbers, with 'plain'/traditional GK numbers, and enhanced GK numbers, aka phrase tagging.  They are all the same base NIV11 text, with increasing information.  I'm 99% sure there are upgrades to either -GK or -GKE if you have the first one.  There are also the old NIV 1984 editions, some with GK numbers as well.  GK stands for "Goodrick-Kohlenberger".  This is a new set of numbers designed to replace the old Strong's system, that was missing lots of words and had other limitations.  They work the same way, just a different number, and more modern research and tagging.

 

The big improvement of the 'E' enhanced GK numbers is the phrase tagging.  Consider Gen 1:3 "Let there be light".  In Hebrew this 4 word phrase only uses 2 words to translate it, יְהִ֣י א֑וֹר.  A traditional strong's (and non-E GK) will find the most representative word and tag it, so "be" gets יְהִ֣י and "light" gets א֑וֹר, while "let there" remains untagged.  The GKE project tagged every single english word to every single greek or hebrew word, so it notes that "let there be" is the phrase translating יְהִ֣י, with 'be' being the primary word.  See attached screenshot for how Accordance renders this information:

 

 

I hope this helps!

[Kristin]

15 minutes ago, Joel Brown said:

The links on the page look correct to me now, perhaps someone took care of them already?

 

We have three editions of the NIV11 - Without GK numbers, with 'plain'/traditional GK numbers, and enhanced GK numbers, aka phrase tagging.  They are all the same base NIV11 text, with increasing information.  I'm 99% sure there are upgrades to either -GK or -GKE if you have the first one.  There are also the old NIV 1984 editions, some with GK numbers as well.  GK stands for "Goodrick-Kohlenberger".  This is a new set of numbers designed to replace the old Strong's system, that was missing lots of words and had other limitations.  They work the same way, just a different number, and more modern research and tagging.

 

The big improvement of the 'E' enhanced GK numbers is the phrase tagging.  Consider Gen 1:3 "Let there be light".  In Hebrew this 4 word phrase only uses 2 words to translate it, יְהִ֣י א֑וֹר.  A traditional strong's (and non-E GK) will find the most representative word and tag it, so "be" gets יְהִ֣י and "light" gets א֑וֹר, while "let there" remains untagged.  The GKE project tagged every single english word to every single greek or hebrew word, so it notes that "let there be" is the phrase translating יְהִ֣י, with 'be' being the primary word.  See attached screenshot for how Accordance renders this information:

 

 

I hope this helps!

 

Hi Joel,

I just checked the links and they are working now, so I agree someone must have fixed it already.

 

Concerning the NIV, I see in my "Check for updates" that you are correct, and it provides the discounted price. However, when I click the link to go to the page it does not recognize it as an upgrade. I am not sure if that is a tech issue or sales issue, so I figured I would mention it here and if you suggest I email sales I will do that. Let me know if you can.

 

Concerning the 1984, that's not on Acc at all, is it? I have been looking for it but have only been able to find the 2011 version.

 

Thank you for explaining GK! I thought it stood for "Greek key."

Sincerely,
Kristin

 

Thank you for your help,

Kristin

[Joel Brown]

Hey Kristin, you definitely should be getting that upgrade price.  I think its a bug in the website - e-mail or call sales, and they'd be happy to set up the order with the correct price.

[Kristin]

Thank you, @Joel Brown, I will send them  a message.

 

Thank you again and take care,

Kristin