Who's Afraid of Big Bad Greek? (or Hebrew!)

[R. Mansfield]

Are Greek & Hebrew languages difficult to learn? Will learning Greek & Hebrew really help me in the work of ministry? Will I forget it all after seminary? David Lang addresses these questions and more in "Who's Afraid of Big Bad Greek? (or Hebrew!)” in today’s post at the Accordance blog!

 

[MattChristianOT]

So grateful this topic was introduced today. I have been listing to some around me in seminary complain about their language courses, put them off until the end of their degree, or flat out slide by with as little effort as possible to get a barely passing grade and go on to lead churches and congregations. Remember Luther? Remember Calvin? they were first linguists and they used their study of language to inform their theology. What are we saying when we push language aside? Do you want to base your theology off of someone else idea of linguistics?

 

Thanks Accordance for leading the way with your amazing product and connecting students with great material and God help us all to carefully deal with The Word.

[Alistair]

So grateful this topic was introduced today. I have been listing to some around me in seminary complain about their language courses, put them off until the end of their degree, or flat out slide by with as little effort as possible to get a barely passing grade and go on to lead churches and congregations. Remember Luther? Remember Calvin? they were first linguists and they used their study of language to inform their theology. What are we saying when we push language aside? Do you want to base your theology off of someone else idea of linguistics?

 

Thanks Accordance for leading the way with your amazing product and connecting students with great material and God help us all to carefully deal with The Word.

 

I hear what you say about learning the biblical languages, but people such as William Tyndale and others worked and died so we wouldn't have to.

[Mark Allison]

I hear what you say about learning the biblical languages, but people such as William Tyndale and others worked and died so we wouldn't have to.

 

 

A translator is a traitor. 

[MattChristianOT]

I hear what you say about learning the biblical languages, but people such as William Tyndale and others worked and died so we wouldn't have to.

I respect your comment and am grateful for the work of translators everywhere, however if I am going to stand in a pulpit to deliver the Word, I would like to do so with some knowledge of the text beyond what is handed to e by the fruits of another's labor. While translators and translations are wonderful, they are always nothing more than an interpretation. As such, I would like to do my own interpretation based on my own work. If Tyndale's work was the arbiter of truth, we would not have numerous other translations. 

I am not trying to start an argument here (which is the last thing anyone should do here), but my point is I am tired of the laziness I am seeing out of my generation of pastors. While Tyndale died doing what he did, what he did was rise above the standard of his day as a man of the cloth and do what was right, not what was easy. If we say we are going to teach or preach, we need to know what can about what we are speaking of. Not just rely on popular theology or one person's interpretation. Some knowledge in training in Semitic languages and Greek is necessary.

 

Thank you for your thoughts.

[Timothy Jenney]

I wish more people thought like you, Matt.

 

As it is, too many seminaries are dropping or reducing their language requirements. I can't help but see that as an indicator that they are moving away from the exposition of the Word as the primary task of the pastor.

[MattChristianOT]

I wish more people thought like you, Matt.

 

As it is, too many seminaries are dropping or reducing their language requirements. I can't help but see that as an indicator that they are moving away from the exposition of the Word as the primary task of the pastor.

 

Greed- It is insane what they are doing. My goal is to try and reinstate the importance of language studies in institutions!

[Timothy Jenney]

You definitely have the language background for it!

 

I confess to being slightly envious. I'm not a linguist, but an historian by methodology. I always struggled with language acquisition. I worked hard at it, but ended up merely competent (and even that has atrophied over the years!). I am grateful to Daily Dose of Greek and Hebrew for helping me build my skills back, bit-by-bit.

 

Nevertheless, I am fully convinced original languages belong in a modern preacher's exegetical arsenal.

[Michael Hunt]

Just want to say that the audio links in the recently updated mounce Greek dictionary we will be a great help as my 10 year old daughter and I tackle Greek together.

[lesterchua]

Just want to say that the audio links in the recently updated mounce Greek dictionary we will be a great help as my 10 year old daughter and I tackle Greek together.

 

Hi, which Mounce Dictionary is this? I am looking for something like this, where I can click on a word and hear it's pronunciation.

[Fabian]

 

Greetings

 

Fabian

[lesterchua]

 

 

My Mounce Greek Dictionary does not contain that link. How can I enable it? Do I lack a module?

 

EDIT: I got it figured out! There was a new update of the dictionary to version 4! Thanks for the update! Really great work by the folks at Oak Tree!

Edited July 30, 2018 by lesterchua

[lesterchua]

Is there a Hebrew Dictionary that also gives a pronunciation?

[Ronelh]

I respect your comment and am grateful for the work of translators everywhere, however if I am going to stand in a pulpit to deliver the Word, I would like to do so with some knowledge of the text beyond what is handed to e by the fruits of another's labor. While translators and translations are wonderful, they are always nothing more than an interpretation. As such, I would like to do my own interpretation based on my own work. If Tyndale's work was the arbiter of truth, we would not have numerous other translations. 

I am not trying to start an argument here (which is the last thing anyone should do here), but my point is I am tired of the laziness I am seeing out of my generation of pastors. While Tyndale died doing what he did, what he did was rise above the standard of his day as a man of the cloth and do what was right, not what was easy. If we say we are going to teach or preach, we need to know what can about what we are speaking of. Not just rely on popular theology or one person's interpretation. Some knowledge in training in Semitic languages and Greek is necessary.

 

Thank you for your thoughts.

I was just going to “like” this post but the forum is telling me I have reached my quota of positive likes for the day. Funny that there’s a daily quota for that, but never mind. :-)

 

I am a translation consultant, which means I pour life and soul into helping with Bible translation on the mission field. Not everyone will be able to study the biblical languages, so translation is a tool to make the Bible accessible to everyone. But it doesn’t replace the value of studying the biblical languages, to gain a deeper understanding of the Word in order to teach it more effectively to others.

 

Anyway, thanks, Matt, for your good thoughts.

[Michael Hunt]

Is there a Hebrew Dictionary that also gives a pronunciation?

Doesn’t appear to be .... yet????

[jarcher]

I am grateful to Daily Dose of Greek and Hebrew for helping me build my skills back, bit-by-bit.

 

Fantastic tools!

[Timothy Jenney]

I was just going to “like” this post but the forum is telling me I have reached my quota of positive likes for the day. Funny that there’s a daily quota for that, but never mind. :-)

Apparently you are just a really "like-able" person!

[Julia Falling]

You definitely have the language background for it!

 

I confess to being slightly envious. I'm not a linguist, but an historian by methodology. I always struggled with language acquisition. I worked hard at it, but ended up merely competent (and even that has atrophied over the years!). I am grateful to Daily Dose of Greek and Hebrew for helping me build my skills back, bit-by-bit.

 

Nevertheless, I am fully convinced original languages belong in a modern preacher's exegetical arsenal.

 

Fantastic tools!

 

I agree 100%.  My husband and I both do Daily Dose of Greek, usually together.  [We're still trying to get our schedule back after visit from grandkids (1 week) and grandkids + their parents (1 week).  Great time but exhausting.]

 

I need to start doing Daily Dose of Hebrew.

 

And Matt – I, too, greatly appreciate your devotion to the Lord expressed in your devotion to the Biblical languages.  There are also a lot of non-pastors learning the languages.  A sister church in our city taught at least the 1st three semesters of Greek.

 

We are blessed in our local church in having a pastor who learned and uses the languages.  He had Miles Van Pelt for Hebrew in Seminary (RTS Jackson).  Van Pelt was passionate about his students learning the languages.  But he also told his students to spend a lot of time in their English Bibles.  We all need to do that as well.

[mgvh]

Timothy Jenney, on 30 Jul 2018 - 08:22 AM, said:

I wish more people thought like you, Matt.

 

As it is, too many seminaries are dropping or reducing their language requirements. I can't help but see that as an indicator that they are moving away from the exposition of the Word as the primary task of the pastor.

Greed- It is insane what they are doing. My goal is to try and reinstate the importance of language studies in institutions!

 

As someone teaching at a seminary, it has nothing to do with "greed," and it's not "insane" given the context.

• There are all sorts of pressure on seminaries and on seminarians. In my denomination (ELCA), the usual pattern is 3 years of post-college work plus 1 year of internship in order to become ordained. That's four years of housing, tuition, books, Accordance software (!), etc. and four years without an income, and then students head out into underpaid positions now carrying both college and seminary debt-loads. Efforts to reduce tuition and reduce time to ordination are attempts to make it possible for there to be more pastors. That's not greed.
• Seminaries do struggle to stay afloat. Older seminaries may have staggering building maintenance costs. Enrollment has been on a steady decline. (Though we have had two years of slight increase now at United Lutheran, in part because we have removed tuition for many students.) But if one seminary has a 2-year program to degree and another has a 4-year program to the same degree, which one will students be inclined to choose? I.e., there are pressures to condense the curriculum, and language study hence also gets condensed.
• For many years now, there has also been the recognition that preaching is but one part of a pastor's responsibiliities. In addition to original language and Bible topics, there is church history (ancient and modern), theology, pastoral care, liturgics, leadership and community-building skills,... Back in the day when I was a student in seminary, the Bible and language courses were over 1/3 of the curriculum. Today they are 1/4. Something's gotta give...

I am passionate about language and Bible study, so don't think I'm necessarily happy about the changes, but I am realistic. I was a pastor for 14 years before starting to teach at a seminary, so I'm fully aware of the demands placed upon pastors. It just didn't work to think that I could sit in my study and devote 20 hours/week to studying a text to prepare for a sermon or Bible study. And keep in mind that 'translation' is not simply a matter of rendering words in one language into another. It's also translating from one culture into another. Without engagement in the lives of people, my language/Bible study is quite dead.

 

What's the solution? It's not more time spent in seminary. My goal is to inspire students to become passionate about the Bible and the study of it, including the original languages. My hope is that they will take it upon themselves to be diligent in continued, regular study. And how do I encourage that? By using Bible software to make their study time more efficient. Again, this doesn't replace simply doing as much reading as possible and staying current with new developments. A person simply can't learn everything during a fixed time in a learning institution. Get the foundation in seminary, but don't stop there. I am an advocate for continuing education. I've heard enough bad sermons, and there is so much bad biblical exegesis and theology floating around, that I know how important biblical study is. We're going to need a lot of prayer too...

[jarcher]

I enrolled in seminary (again) this month. And all of the things above definitely crossed my mind.

[Julia Falling]

Some things to think about –

 

You can do a lot of your work without moving or quitting your job.  We have three young men in our church who are preparing for ministry.  One has a wife and three children, works full-time, and does seminary online.  The other two have not been in seminary as long, are married & employed – one with their first baby due the end of this month, the other who just joyfully announced that he and his wife are expecting their first child (these two are BILs).  Somehow they're managing to do it.  I don't think they're incurring debt in the process.  They are learning to be excellent managers of their time.  

 

Our pastor did much of his work online and finished up with a year at RTS, Jackson.  He had already worked in industry (programmer) and had a bunch of kids before beginning his formal theological education.  He is an excellent teacher and preacher.

 

When our pastor is off, he has four men within the church who are willing and able to fill the pulpit, not counting the elders.  (The fourth is the church's retired pastor; he fills our pulpit & other pulpits in the area as needed.)  We, as a church, have been richly blessed.

[Alex H.]

This is good timing. I did Greek and Hebrew at seminary 20 years ago and have all but lost them. I think my Hebrew is a lost cause, but I've just picked up my Mounce BBG resources again and decided that with another 15 to 20 years of ministry ahead of me (plus, that's until official retirement age), it's not too late for the effort to be worth it. We'll see how quickly it comes back and if time constraints beat me!

[MattChristianOT]

 

Timothy Jenney, on 30 Jul 2018 - 08:22 AM, said:

 

As someone teaching at a seminary, it has nothing to do with "greed," and it's not "insane" given the context.

• There are all sorts of pressure on seminaries and on seminarians. In my denomination (ELCA), the usual pattern is 3 years of post-college work plus 1 year of internship in order to become ordained. That's four years of housing, tuition, books, Accordance software (!), etc. and four years without an income, and then students head out into underpaid positions now carrying both college and seminary debt-loads. Efforts to reduce tuition and reduce time to ordination are attempts to make it possible for there to be more pastors. That's not greed.
• Seminaries do struggle to stay afloat. Older seminaries may have staggering building maintenance costs. Enrollment has been on a steady decline. (Though we have had two years of slight increase now at United Lutheran, in part because we have removed tuition for many students.) But if one seminary has a 2-year program to degree and another has a 4-year program to the same degree, which one will students be inclined to choose? I.e., there are pressures to condense the curriculum, and language study hence also gets condensed.
• For many years now, there has also been the recognition that preaching is but one part of a pastor's responsibiliities. In addition to original language and Bible topics, there is church history (ancient and modern), theology, pastoral care, liturgics, leadership and community-building skills,... Back in the day when I was a student in seminary, the Bible and language courses were over 1/3 of the curriculum. Today they are 1/4. Something's gotta give...

I am passionate about language and Bible study, so don't think I'm necessarily happy about the changes, but I am realistic. I was a pastor for 14 years before starting to teach at a seminary, so I'm fully aware of the demands placed upon pastors. It just didn't work to think that I could sit in my study and devote 20 hours/week to studying a text to prepare for a sermon or Bible study. And keep in mind that 'translation' is not simply a matter of rendering words in one language into another. It's also translating from one culture into another. Without engagement in the lives of people, my language/Bible study is quite dead.

 

What's the solution? It's not more time spent in seminary. My goal is to inspire students to become passionate about the Bible and the study of it, including the original languages. My hope is that they will take it upon themselves to be diligent in continued, regular study. And how do I encourage that? By using Bible software to make their study time more efficient. Again, this doesn't replace simply doing as much reading as possible and staying current with new developments. A person simply can't learn everything during a fixed time in a learning institution. Get the foundation in seminary, but don't stop there. I am an advocate for continuing education. I've heard enough bad sermons, and there is so much bad biblical exegesis and theology floating around, that I know how important biblical study is. We're going to need a lot of prayer too...

 

I think these are great thoughts- I think my biggest concern is when I hear of "Biblical counseling" degrees that only require one semester of one biblical language. That is happening where I am! I realize that we need to be realistic but do we need to bow to the whims of a student body that doesn't want to tackle Greek or Hebrew? Or do we nurture them and demonstrate that these things are important? I use Greek and Hebrew regularly in my Sunday school classes. None of the attendees have any idea what it is but when I explain it to them and show them how it effects the text, the results are great!

 

My suggestion would be to cut a lot of the dynamic, leadership pop culture fluff, and focus on what is important: Language, creed, history, theology. Leadership is born of experience, growth is out of faithfulness. Counseling is out of wisdom from being in the Word and Prayer. I think a simple curriculum can be built out of these things. The traditional Mdiv is part of the problem but that is another story all together!

This is good timing. I did Greek and Hebrew at seminary 20 years ago and have all but lost them. I think my Hebrew is a lost cause, but I've just picked up my Mounce BBG resources again and decided that with another 15 to 20 years of ministry ahead of me (plus, that's until official retirement age), it's not too late for the effort to be worth it. We'll see how quickly it comes back and if time constraints beat me!

You would be surprised what you can do with just studying vocabulary. While grammar may be daunting, simply working on vocal and then reading Hebrew will help you get those skills back!

Edited August 3, 2018 by MattChristian

[MattChristianOT]

Some things to think about –

 

You can do a lot of your work without moving or quitting your job.  We have three young men in our church who are preparing for ministry.  One has a wife and three children, works full-time, and does seminary online.  The other two have not been in seminary as long, are married & employed – one with their first baby due the end of this month, the other who just joyfully announced that he and his wife are expecting their first child (these two are BILs).  Somehow they're managing to do it.  I don't think they're incurring debt in the process.  They are learning to be excellent managers of their time.  

 

Our pastor did much of his work online and finished up with a year at RTS, Jackson.  He had already worked in industry (programmer) and had a bunch of kids before beginning his formal theological education.  He is an excellent teacher and preacher.

 

When our pastor is off, he has four men within the church who are willing and able to fill the pulpit, not counting the elders.  (The fourth is the church's retired pastor; he fills our pulpit & other pulpits in the area as needed.)  We, as a church, have been richly blessed.

I have heard rumors that RTS Orlando will be offering Akkadian soon... There is a fellow that has just started teaching there that has some training in Assyriology- I think this is amazing to see in a seminary, but so necessary for students like myself that wish to teach in possible confessional settings and teach history and language. I once was able to sit in a lecture with Peter Gentry on the importance of the Septuagint and he was on record as saying that all pastors should know Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Syriac. I agree with that statement!

[Benjamin Gladd]

I have heard rumors that RTS Orlando will be offering Akkadian soon... There is a fellow that has just started teaching there that has some training in Assyriology- I think this is amazing to see in a seminary, but so necessary for students like myself that wish to teach in possible confessional settings and teach history and language. I once was able to sit in a lecture with Peter Gentry on the importance of the Septuagint and he was on record as saying that all pastors should know Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Syriac. I agree with that statement!

We at RTS Jackson offer Aramaic, Greek, Hebrew, and Latin!