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sin/shin don't work in Hebrew Construct Go to: box


Michel Gilbert
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Hi,

 

- sin and shin work in the Mac version

 

- they also work in the Windows version in User Notes

 

post-32543-0-98442400-1443111335_thumb.png

 

- but, they don't work in the Go to: box, shin goes to sin, and their dots don't appear

 

post-32543-0-62298900-1443111323_thumb.png

 

- it does this for every place in a word, e.g., try to enter אֲשֶׁר , when you enter the shin as second consonant, it goes to first available sin as second consonant instead

 

post-32543-0-47119600-1443111329_thumb.png

 

- שׂ and שׁ are two Unicode values each: 05E9 = ש followed by either a shin dot = 05C1 or a sin dot = 05C2 ; these values are the same whether you enter them with the Ezra SIL keyboard, the Hebrew Qwerty one, or any other one

 

- when you enter sin or shin in the Go to: box, you need two backspaces to delete, even though their dots aren't visible; this suggests to me that Acc doesn't recognize Unicode sin or shin in the Go to: box, but just the first half of both consonants, the 05E9 = ש

 

- one can enter sin or shin in the Go to: box with Acc's proprietary (?)  kbd and English set as the system language, but this is a serious problem for those who change the system language to Hebrew and use a Unicode keyboard to work in Acc's Hebrew Construct Syntax Database

 

- Acc accepts every other Hebrew Unicode character in the Go to: box, User Notes, and other search boxes

 

- it's ironic that the standard non-proprietary Unicode Hebrew keyboard for the Windows biblical world, the Ezra SIL kbd, available at SBL and Tavultesoft's Keyman Desktop, works better in the Mac version of Acc than the Windows one

 

- please, I reported this on or about the day 11.0.7 came out, I sent a personal message to Joel about it three weeks later, Joel said it was fixed, I reported to Helen that it wasn't fixed in beta 11.0.8 and she said she'd pass it on, and now it still isn't fixed in the 11.0.8 release

 

- I actually found this out on Sept 22, within a few hours of 11.0.8's release, but I was so frustrated I waited until today to write about it; do I have to wait/hope for another two months for the most basic of functions? This Go to: box has been a nightmare on and off for two years; sin and shin worked at times in version 10, then we couldn't click into the box but had to Tab around in circles as a workaround, then the consonants were invisible, and now sin and shin don't work; again, please fix this.

 

Regards,

 

Michel

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Michel, I am sorry for your experience in all of this.  First let me say that this bug is only present when using third party software (Keyman), which is not officially supported.  Keyman is creating unexpected (and unusual) behavior when entering these characters, so it is not surprising it isn't working.

 

However, we are currently working on a fix for this, and will likely put out a special 11.0.8.1 for users experiencing this issue.  As soon as it is ready, we'll let you know.

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Hi Joel,

 

I'm grateful you will fix it for Keyman, especially since so many use it. But, it isn't limited to Keyman or third party keyboards. If I switch Keyman off and use the Windows system Hebrew QWERTY keyboard (surely the second-most used in the Windows biblical world), it does the same thing, i.e., "v" for ש and Shift-v for ׁ (shin dot) does the same thing in Acc. I've also checked other Hebrew Unicode keyboards and found that whatever keystroke(s) they use to enter שׁ they enter the two correct Unicode values, but Acc in Windows can't recognize those two values in one place - the Go to: box. So I'm also grateful because I think your fix will work for every Hebrew Unicode keyboard.

 

Thanks again.

 

Regards,

 

Michel

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Hi Joel,

 

I responded to your message.

 

I want to thank you and Acc for your customer service, especially for your integrity, keeping your promises, your tenacity, thoroughness, humility, patience, and overall graciousness (had to make the list a perfect seven things).

 

Thank you very much.

 

Best regards,

 

Michel

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  • 2 months later...

I use the Israeli keyboard option for Hebrew. Is there a way to enter shin, rather than sin (which is how the search box in Hebrew constructs seems to construe the character when I hit the a key)? This is particularly a nuisance when I want to select a lexical form beginning with shin: I have to scroll through all the forms beginning with sin, and then scroll to the appropriate form beginning with shin.

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Hi Harvey,

 

You probably know this already, and you're probably asking for something else, but just in case . . .

 

In Windows, type ש followed by Caps Lock, then Shift - 0 (zero) or Shift - ) 

 

I don't have the Israeli kbd loaded to try it for you in Word and Acc.

 

If that doesn't work, שׁ in Acc is also the letter "v" in EN, so you could switch from HE to EN for that one consonant.

 

Regards,

 

Michel

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Hi Harvey,

 

I suspect this is the same issue that Michel and I worked on a while back http://www.accordancebible.com/forums/topic/16625-ezra-sil-keyboard-shin-not-pointed-in-un/?p=80766. Unfortunately despite many attempts there I was unable to resolve this issue in Accordance though as you'll see below it works fine in Firefox.

The issue persists and I see it only in my Windows install, Mac is fine. I use Ezra SIL keyboard layout with the Israeli keyboard preference set.

 

Just to be clear though that we are seeing the same issue here is what I see.

 

In the Israeli mapping hitting "j" produces the pointed שׁ and "f' the pointed שׂ .  But in either case using them in the search box I get the unpointed ש.

Is that what you are seeing ?

 

Thx

D

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Hi Daniel,

 

I assumed Harvey was talking about the Israeli keyboard in Windows, and ש is where English letter "a" is. That ש followed by CapLock > Shift 0/) is used to enter the two Unicode values for shin. But you might be right, that he is talking about the Israeli keyboard in Acc. 

 

Regards,

 

Michel

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It's certainly possible I've confused matters above. Despite the fact that the Acc preference says Israeli keyboard I have always taken it to mean OS keyboard mapping rather than the Acc internal Hebrew keyboard. So yes the mapping I mentioned above are SIL not modern Israeli.

 

Hopefully Harvey will sort us out and perhaps both keyboard mappings are broken in about the same way in Acc.

 

Tx

D

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Hi again,

 

I think the only difference between the Windows and Acc Israeli keyboard is the allowance for the shin dot. Of course, you have to set the language to HE to use the Windows keyboard.

 

Regards,

 

Michel

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I use Ezra SIL keyboard layout with the Israeli keyboard preference set.

 

Hi again,

 

I have this preference unchecked in Acc, and the Ezra SIL keyboard works perfectly.

 

Regards,

 

Michel

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I was momentarily hopeful but I think I tried this before. Anyhow I did a quick test now and it made no difference.

 

Thx

D

Edited by Daniel Semler
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Maybe we can talk about it again tomorrow. In this part of the world most people are already sleeping, and I almost am too.

 

I don't remember if you use Keyman. I do, and that could be the difference.

 

Good night.

 

Michel

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You helped my try it out in the other thread and I could not get it to work the way it works for you I'm afraid.

 

Thx

D

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  • 2 weeks later...

Sorry not to have responded sooner. I inadvertently didn't check "follow this topic." (Why this isn't the default for topics that a user initiates, I can't understand.)

 

My issue concerns using the Israeli keyboard in Accordance on a Windows computer. When, in a Hebrew construct, I try to select a root beginning with shin, hitting the key is interpreted by the program as the letter sin. I can't figure out how to enter a shin.

 

Thanks for your help.

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Hi Harvey,

 

  Regarding the following of topics. This one you didn't initiate so perhaps that's the issue. You can however set a setting in your profile to follow topics you reply to.in My Settings -> Notification Options.

 

  Regarding the issue itself. I can repro. what you are seeing if I just set the use Israeli keyboard pref. and do not switch languages in the OS (Windows). But then messing about with the keyboard a bit given ideas by Michel's comment about it turns out that shift-a produces a shin with shin dot. "a" produces a sin without sin dot, but at least it moves to the right place in the list of values.

 

  I don't know if this constitutes a bug, given what I've read about the Israeli keyboard on Windows, or not, but hopefully this helps you for now.

 

Thx

D

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